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Why Ageism Never Gets Old

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Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#81
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ageism seems largely concentrated on the Silicon-Valley style society." I saw ageism many years ago at a big aerospace firm in the L.A. area. It was understood and even outspoken that young engineers would get the call to work extra hours and weekends if needed, as well as the occasional graveyard shift when a unit was in thermovac testing. Older engineers were not usually called upon become they had "paid their due…

That's not ageism; that's a gentle form of hazing, and to be found in almost any profession or trade. An extreme example is what medical students go through in the early years of their study; a mild example is how, when I worked nominally as a cashier in a grocery store as a high school kid, the more experienced folks ran me from pillar to post for my first couple weeks' worth of shifts, doing everything from stockin…

Nah, as the older engineer, I can say with conviction that it is simply taking advantage of younger colleagues. Older engineer is using his connections, status in group or friendship with decision makers to avoid uncomfortable shift. There is no other point. Occasions to find out whether you work hard tend to arise naturally, without putting all weekends on younger colleagues.

Also, while mentoring is important part of seniors work, it is not "own time and effort". It is paid on the clock time and effort. I am not mentoring overtime for sure.

Hazing is not rational. Its main benefit is that incumbents feel good about power trip they are allowed to do. Plus a bit of good feeling after someone else has to go through uncomfortable thing you yourself was through in the past. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#82
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types In Canada the term 'engineer' is regulated at the provincial level, and a person can be prosecuted for labeling themselves as an engineer if they are not registered and licensed with their province's engineering association. For example in Ontario in order to join Professional Engineers Ontario and call yourself an engineer you must meet…

> For example in Ontario in order to join Professional Engineers Ontario and call yourself an engineer you must meet strict academic and work experience requirements[1], pass an ethics exam, and pay a yearly membership fee. Sounds like a racket, especially given that the PEO is a private organization. I’m not sure why this is supposed to be a good thing. > Everyone who graduates from an accredited engineering program…

> Sounds like a racket, especially given that the PEO is a private organization.

Dunno why you need the qualifier there. There are public and nonprofit rackets, too.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#83

Well, I am 37 and in my Junior year of a Computer Science degree. I'm not gonna lie, this freaks me out a bit. I do live on the east coast though, hopefully that will help some.

I graduated at 36 ( 21 years ago) Admittedly, I very wisely picked the best time in history to pick my major(Computer Engineering, and that was because there was no local school offering chem Eng. and I saw a physics student playing with fractals and thought, "wow that's cool") Of course, I am pretty sure that kind of mind set is why I do ok, I have always been fascinated with just about everything which makes learning fun.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#84
>“The irony of man’s condition is that the deepest need is to be free of the anxiety of death and annihilation; but it is life itself which awakens it, and so we must shrink from being fully alive.”

I'm less afraid of death than of not fully living my life.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#85
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mythology leads directly to horribly created software that will either ensure many terrible security breaches in the future or the continued proliferation of "magic" throughout a product. One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types. an engineer in any other proper engineering discipline does not become worthless with age, their experience actually counts for something. Somehow…

I don't think it's ageism if one person is selected based on being willing to work more for less money. That's just a labor market. There's an argument to be made that 20-somethings shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week or should require higher pay. Or that employers should place more value on the work of more experienced developers. Or both. But I don't think experienced developers should be exempt from keeping w…

> I don't think it's ageism if one person is selected based on being willing to work more for less money. That's just a labor market.

All sorts of discrimination exists still because "perfectly rational" arguments like yours ignore underlying reasons.

For example: it's the same justification racists used for intelligence tests for voting not too long ago.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#86
post #29

First, ageism is not just a SV phenomenon. For example, see the very young White House aides in Clinton, Bush, & Obama administrations.[1] Second, the tech companies that have a reputation for favoring 20-somethings will still hire older workers for certain positions. - Even though Mark Zuckerberg said, "younger people are just smarter" , he hired an "old" person like Sheryl Sandberg to be COO at age ~38. - Bill Gate…

It's worth noting that the median age of an American is 41. That we're discussing people in that age range as counterexamples kind of proves the point.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#87
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mythology leads directly to horribly created software that will either ensure many terrible security breaches in the future or the continued proliferation of "magic" throughout a product. One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types. an engineer in any other proper engineering discipline does not become worthless with age, their experience actually counts for something. Somehow…

I don't think it's ageism if one person is selected based on being willing to work more for less money. That's just a labor market. There's an argument to be made that 20-somethings shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week or should require higher pay. Or that employers should place more value on the work of more experienced developers. Or both. But I don't think experienced developers should be exempt from keeping w…

It's predjudice if you pre-judge how much people are willing to work or how much money they want based on their demographics.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#88
> With the advent of the cloud and off-the-shelf A.P.I.s—the building blocks of sites and apps—all you really need to launch a startup is a bold idea.

With the advent of operating systems and the standard libraries - the building blocks of applications and widgets - all you really need to launch a startup is a bold idea.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about trivialising tech startups - sure there are some which are trivial. At the same time, I don't really like that the venerable idea people are being encouraged even more.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#89
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mythology leads directly to horribly created software that will either ensure many terrible security breaches in the future or the continued proliferation of "magic" throughout a product. One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types. an engineer in any other proper engineering discipline does not become worthless with age, their experience actually counts for something. Somehow…

> One of the issues is using the word "engineer" for any of the brogrammer types In Canada the term 'engineer' is regulated at the provincial level, and a person can be prosecuted for labeling themselves as an engineer if they are not registered and licensed with their province's engineering association. For example in Ontario in order to join Professional Engineers Ontario and call yourself an engineer you must meet…

The English word "engineer" is quite difficult for French people, because in French we have the term "ingénieur" (usually meaning "ingénieur diplômé"), which is something like the big universities diplomas in other countries.

A better translation of engineer would be "technicien".

French "ingénieurs" come from "Grandes écoles", see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#90
post #24

A good way to counter this is to become an expert in some combination of "something old + something (somewhat) new". Like knowing bog standard java well, but also knowing how to deploy/use it in AWS well. Or being a C expert that also understands git in a deep way.

Or just pick a good technology going forward. Experts in C and Java are still in demand. There's no urgent need to branch out from those core competencies (well, C devs should probably have some C++ skills too). Old+New is an interesting and likely beneficial career plan, though.
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