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UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#81

Post by ZenoArrow »

gejjaxxita wrote: post #55
gruez wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal explain?

I am an EU citizen living in the UK for 11 years (my whole adult life) so this is from my perspective. The campaign and reasons given for leaving were extremely xenophobic. There was a lot of talk of EU citizens "clogging up" the healthcare system and emigrating to the UK to claim benefits instead of working. Almost none of this was based on fact but it almost certainly swung the vote. Other reasons such as sovereign…

> "Other reasons such as sovereignty were also given but most polls indicate that unhappiness with immigration was the main reason people voted to leave the EU. This in itself isn't necessarily xenophobic, but given the enormous economic benefits of immigration into the UK it's difficult to conclude otherwise."

UK newspapers have been lying about immigration for years, drastically underplaying the economic benefits. The lies aren't even coherent, on one hand you're told that immigrants are coming to the UK to sponge off the system, on the other hand you're told they're very hard working and prepared to work for lower wages than the locals.

I would be highly surprised if a majority of those who voted on the grounds of immigration would also understand the economic benefits of immigration.

The UK news media had a large part to play in the negative aspects of the Brexit vote. For those who are unfamiliar with the quality of UK news media, it's quite hard to get across how bad they are, but here's just one example (totally unrelated to Brexit) that hopefully starts to build a picture of what passes for news coverage in the UK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWqvWFUj51k

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#82

Post by mbroncano »

neilwilson wrote: post #44
mbroncano wrote: post #38

It saddens me to no extent witnessing a formerly great country falling deep in the abyss of irrelevance, propelled and fueled by a remarkable societal and intellectual isolationism improper in this time and age. Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal. Interesting times indeed. In a sense, social media et al. are fulfilling the place that widespread newspapers first, and la…

Time to read up on some British History. The last time this happened was during the reign of George II when the UK rejected Europe and Hanover and turned its eyes to the world. The tune "Rule Britannia" was the marching song for the 'patriots' who pushed for an independent UK based policy. The result was the industrial revolution and the UK becoming the pre-eminent power on Earth. So we've sort of done this before.

Thanks for the advise (as well as the down voting, certainly supporting my point) but it hardly seems relevant to this situation. Comparing the sad, utter mess that the UK currently seems to be, to the 18th century booming empire can at best provoke a discreet laugh. Allow me to express my sincere gratitude for that, smiling is quite underrated these days.

The biggest problem seems to be lack of acknowledgement of the UK role in the world, at best dwindled ever since they lost both WW, the only colonial territory worth mentioning (i.e. India) and recently becoming CHAV land. The rest of the involved parties (such as Germany and France, but also including the most of western Europe) took notice of how the world was, and did their best to ensure their position in the coming years. To some remarkable success I must say, the EU (even when discounting the 28th member) is still the biggest economic zone in the world, and after the final departure of the UK it will certainly develop a tighter union including a common military, new federal institutions and so on.

All of which seems to escape the 'Rule Britannia' crowd such as you. Congratulations on your Darwin price! Maybe is time for you to read up on some science ...

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#83

Post by mike-cardwell »

mbroncano wrote: post #38

It saddens me to no extent witnessing a formerly great country falling deep in the abyss of irrelevance, propelled and fueled by a remarkable societal and intellectual isolationism improper in this time and age. Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal. Interesting times indeed. In a sense, social media et al. are fulfilling the place that widespread newspapers first, and la…

The UK is a small country with an inflated influence in the World mainly due to "recent" history - empire, wealth etc. The UK's standing in the World will continue to fall over time, regardless of EU membership. It simply does not have the natural resources to compete anymore. This is nothing to be sad about. The idea that the UK is more isolationist, bigoted, racist or xenophobic than any other country is baseless, and it contributes in no way to the decline in World power.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#84

Post by [deleted] »

mbroncano wrote: post #82
neilwilson wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to read up on some British History. The last time this happened was during the reign of George II when the UK rejected Europe and Hanover and turned its eyes to the world. The tune "Rule Britannia" was the marching song for the 'patriots' who pushed for an independent UK based policy. The result was the industrial revolution and the UK becoming the pre-eminent power on Earth. So we've sort of done this before.

Thanks for the advise (as well as the down voting, certainly supporting my point) but it hardly seems relevant to this situation. Comparing the sad, utter mess that the UK currently seems to be, to the 18th century booming empire can at best provoke a discreet laugh. Allow me to express my sincere gratitude for that, smiling is quite underrated these days. The biggest problem seems to be lack of acknowledgement of th…

[deleted]

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#85

Post by ZenoArrow »

Tech-Noir wrote: post #70
gejjaxxita wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an EU citizen living in the UK for 11 years (my whole adult life) so this is from my perspective. The campaign and reasons given for leaving were extremely xenophobic. There was a lot of talk of EU citizens "clogging up" the healthcare system and emigrating to the UK to claim benefits instead of working. Almost none of this was based on fact but it almost certainly swung the vote. Other reasons such as sovereign…

Both campaigns were guilty of misinformation but the most blatant outrage was the UK government itself spending £9 ($12) million of the British people's money producing and delivering one-sided pro-EU propaganda to every address in the UK. Edit: For people downvoting the above factual post: Government's £9m EU 'propaganda' leaflet has left public LESS well informed, study shows: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/g…

I don't know why you're being downvoted. The lack of impartiality in the public debate was pretty obvious, there was almost nobody in the public sphere that was openly exploring all the issues. Would it have been hard to actually listen to each other and get beyond the surface level shouting match that constituted the pre-Brexit debates?

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#86

Post by mbroncano »

mike-cardwell wrote: post #83
mbroncano wrote: post #38

It saddens me to no extent witnessing a formerly great country falling deep in the abyss of irrelevance, propelled and fueled by a remarkable societal and intellectual isolationism improper in this time and age. Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal. Interesting times indeed. In a sense, social media et al. are fulfilling the place that widespread newspapers first, and la…

The UK is a small country with an inflated influence in the World mainly due to "recent" history - empire, wealth etc. The UK's standing in the World will continue to fall over time, regardless of EU membership. It simply does not have the natural resources to compete anymore. This is nothing to be sad about. The idea that the UK is more isolationist, bigoted, racist or xenophobic than any other country is baseless,…

Correct. But the fact that they're leaving the successful economic environment they're currently sort of privileged members, which helps them avoid becoming irrelevant, based on clearly misinformed and mostly implicitly supremacist arguments, implies the idea that they are indeed.

We can argue all day, but the campaign 'remains' (sorry for the pun) in our memories. Denial will not make things improve, nor chanting 'Rule Britannia' like some other commentators.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#87

Post by mbroncano »

gruez wrote: post #42
mbroncano wrote: post #38

It saddens me to no extent witnessing a formerly great country falling deep in the abyss of irrelevance, propelled and fueled by a remarkable societal and intellectual isolationism improper in this time and age. Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal. Interesting times indeed. In a sense, social media et al. are fulfilling the place that widespread newspapers first, and la…

>Not to mention the implicit bigotry, racism and xenophobia of the whole Brexit deal explain?

I'll leave that for fine gentlemen such Mr. Farage or BJ. Hopefully they'll be kind enough to explain what I'm referring to by just elaborating on their position on this whole affair.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#88

Post by presidente20 »

cletus wrote: post #66

So I've been watching (and shaking my head) at this whole Brexit fiasco with both some personal interest (UK and thus current EU citizen) and more general interest in that the Leave vote was basically a protest vote against immigration that seemed to basically get out of hand. We can peg a lot of the blame for this on David Cameron who initiated a referendum (I assume he thought would never pass) without any plan to…

I think you're getting caught up in the tittle tattle of 'why people voted' and other fear-based narratives.

Why not focus on the core issues here? Is the EU founded on solid principles? Is it functioning well / showing good judgement? Is it democratic in any effective way? Does a superstate make sense in the 21st century? I answer no to all those four questions. If you think differently then fine but we got a vote each.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#89

Post by 7952 »

Tech-Noir wrote: post #70
gejjaxxita wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an EU citizen living in the UK for 11 years (my whole adult life) so this is from my perspective. The campaign and reasons given for leaving were extremely xenophobic. There was a lot of talk of EU citizens "clogging up" the healthcare system and emigrating to the UK to claim benefits instead of working. Almost none of this was based on fact but it almost certainly swung the vote. Other reasons such as sovereign…

Both campaigns were guilty of misinformation but the most blatant outrage was the UK government itself spending £9 ($12) million of the British people's money producing and delivering one-sided pro-EU propaganda to every address in the UK. Edit: For people downvoting the above factual post: Government's £9m EU 'propaganda' leaflet has left public LESS well informed, study shows: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/g…

The funny thing is that it back fired. People were sick of these kind of expert opinions and interference. This pamphlet probably turned people over to the leave side.

I think it would have been better to make an emotional argument instead of relying on facts. People don't vote objectively. This is rubbish propaganda.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#90

Post by dsp1234 »

QAPereo wrote: post #35
lurker456 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not reversible. Triggering article 50 means leaving in 2 years or less, it has no provisions to pause or revert the process. The only way to rejoin is with the agreement of all other member states, on new and very likely less favorable terms.

http://www.businessinsider.com/legal-advice-brexit-can-be-re... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/10/brexit-date... More nuance: http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/63955?lang=en In short, the author of Article 50 disagrees.

Except that the author didn't actually write that it's reversible in any way. That may have been the intent, but that's not what the actual text says, and that's not what all of the Treaty of Lisbon's signers agreed to.

Indeed, the text is so clear, it's hard to argue that there is any actual room for disagreement:

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

The treaty will cease to apply upon a withdrawal agreement, or after 2 years, or after unanimous agreement to extend the period.

The only action that ends up with anything reasonably resembling a "reversible" Article 50 is for the UK to somehow convince all of the EU member states to unanimously agree to an unending extension. Meaning that the UK would be in a permanent state of leaving the EU.

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