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The Disappearing American Grad Student

nytimes.com

81–90 of 142 posts

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#81
post #74
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s very sad actually that in the US my parents saved absolutely nothing for college because when my one parent that attended did it they could afford it with a summer job.

Yeah except for the tons of people who help out their parents on minimum wage jobs because family is family. And those parents "contributed nothing" (except for you know, labour and care and such). It's nice when people have it together but you'll go crazy if you try to "add it up". I hope I'm lucky and consistently organised enough that my children feel entitled to believe that their success was planned for them. Wo…

To be clear, I'm not knocking my parents here, more pointing out how much the culture has changed

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#82
There’s been lots of interest here in grad school articles recently, especially where it is a relatively bad deal or career decision. They’re all related somehow, but I think this is probably more about immigrant/native dynamics than anything else.

In the late 80s, my Mum did a PHD in the US and we lived there for 5 years. Many of her friends were foreign grad students. Others, Texan academics.

Migration via academia has always been a good option. There are special visas. Sometimes financial support. A foreign students application form. More importantly, there’s a structured and welcoming subculture you join by default. You will have a place in university society.

I’m reminded of a provocative (to me) Tyler Cowen bit about formal dress and class mobility. When culture (corporate culture in that case) is formalised, it is easier for outsider to adopt and participate in. You can buy a good suit. You can’t easily adopt ways of speaking, casual fashion, and such. They’re too subtle for outsiders. Cultural signals are still important, but the subtle ones are more exclusive because they are subtle.

Anyway, something similar is probably happening here. Academia is formal. It’s meritocracy is formalised. You can talk funny and think funny, but you’re still a PHD candidate, professor or whatnot. You can access that “social capital” to put it in annoying modern terms.

Like tyoma suggests in this thread, natives have more options to choose from.

There are other reasons, of course. I suspect this is one of the top ones.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#83
post #57
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I should give you direct values, instead of simple speculation. I am masters student in one of the US citizens, and am being funded by my parents savings, so this is all very relevant. I grew up in an above middle class Indian household with an income of about $10,000 a year. My parents lived very frugally (I lived in possibly the highest Indian COL area) and my parents started saving early. Over about 25 yea…

It’s very sad actually that in the US my parents saved absolutely nothing for college because when my one parent that attended did it they could afford it with a summer job.

My parents (when in Canada) saved hard for a scheme that would pay for university for me. In the end the fund performed so badly compared to its promise that it just about bought me some nice textbooks 30 years ago in the UK. (I came across some of the paperwork when 'archiving' the other day.)

Equally, I punt money into my kids' pensions, but at that distance it is a huge punt economically! I mean, some politician somewhere could do something stupid and destroy their value before my kids get to cash in in 50 years' time, just imagine! B^>

Since governments spend in the now, maybe it's rational for parents to also.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#86
post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

I have a friend that went to John Hopkins for one year in CS and dropped out. Just did not think he was suited for college. For the last year he worked at low wages for a sensor board company doing electronics and firmware coding. He just got a job doing cloud programming at a bank for $80K. Sometimes you don't even need an undergraduate degree.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#87
post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

There's also option 1.5: You start at a grad school in a PhD program (so that you have support and do not pile up debt), and you leave with a Masters as quickly as you can. I managed to get my MS in CS back in the early 90s in one calendar year. I had full support via a fellowship since I was one of the top students, so I did not have to be an RA or TA, and could take additional classes. I finished all but my MS Thes…

> I managed to get my MS in CS back in the early 90s in one calendar year.

I had a similar path, RIT has (or had) a dual degree program for Computer Science that only added a year to the regular undergrad program. Rather than take free electives, you swapped in the additional master's course you needed and all your undergrad classes became master's level courses (i.e. more work). I was suffering from depression at the time, so it took me a year to do my master's project (it's on Github, and it's not hard to find me there).

I thought about going back for my PhD, but then realized the cost wasn't worth it.

> The funny thing is that I didn't intend to be so mercenary.

I was and still am. I got my degree from the perspective it would help me get more money. I strongly believe the only thing my job is for is money.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#88
post #81
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah except for the tons of people who help out their parents on minimum wage jobs because family is family. And those parents "contributed nothing" (except for you know, labour and care and such). It's nice when people have it together but you'll go crazy if you try to "add it up". I hope I'm lucky and consistently organised enough that my children feel entitled to believe that their success was planned for them. Wo…

To be clear, I'm not knocking my parents here, more pointing out how much the culture has changed

Yeah you never win or pay off "ancestor debt", and you'll never be free of the debts you owe your children.

At the end of it, being an adult looks a lot like working for everyone else all of the time and it sucks.

It is what is is though and it's worse to be useless. At least that's how I get through the week.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#89
> In the fall of 2015, about 55 percent of all graduate students in mathematics, computer sciences and engineering were from abroad. The dearth of Americans is even more pronounced in hot STEM fields: About 64 percent of doctoral candidates and almost 68 percent in master’s programs last year were international students.

The NYT is trying to vaguely suggest that Americans are being crowded out by foreigners and that Americans can't get advanced degrees because foreigners take all the spots.

But it could be BOTH true that foreigners make up the majority and that Americans do get many more advanced degrees than in the past -- because university education has expanded greatly in the last few decades.

For sake of example: Suppose in 1950, there was 100,000 advanced degrees awarded in the US per year and they were all Americans. Suppose today that there are 1,000,000 advanced degrees of which 45% are Americans (and 55% foreigners). In my contrived example, it's still true that foreigners make up the majority, but the number of Americans getting advanced degrees has jumped from 100,000 to 450,000.

I don't know if I'm right about this, but just saying that the NYT hasn't proved their point.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#90
post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

Don't forget that in some industries (like tech) you can earn the same amount of money in a summer internship that you would have to work a whole year for in your home country.
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