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Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

theguardian.com

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Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#81

Post by datawarrior »

samirillian wrote: post #56
humanrebar wrote: post #29

Moore says: > I would also observe that it is, potentially, culturally catastrophic to have the ephemera of a previous century squatting possessively on the cultural stage and refusing to allow this surely unprecedented era to develop a culture of its own, relevant and sufficient to its times. And Tolkien said: > There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish [mythology] (which greatly…

I feel like you're missing his whole point, which is the use of superheroes as a kind of escapism from the complexities of life. Citing superficial similarities to mythical figures is just a way of sidestepping his actual arguments.

Whats wrong with escapism? I'm an adult, I can grok the world the way it is. I can also sit and enjoy a comic book movie or just a comicbook. That has no baring on my ability to take the world seriously. In fact everyone needs an escape from time to time.

Moore is just being a dullard trying to poo poo on peoples fun.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#82

Post by Iv »

I wholeheartedly agree. More than the simplistic worldview they offer, what I I find distressing in superheroes culture (that contaminated other genres as well) is that it promotes a narrative of the providential individual, set to save the day. Teams are 4 or 5 persons max, bigger organizations are seen as either evil or incompetent.

We are losing the taste for collaborative work. We are promoting the idea that only a single individual can make things better. The idea that the humble contribution of the masses can amount to a powerful wave are totally lost.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#84

Post by marzipan »

humanrebar wrote: post #62
maxerickson wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't quite fit into the black and white mold, but most modern action heroes are 100% righteous, which is a similar thing. Take the incredible scene in Iron Man 1 where Tony Stark flies halfway around the word, kills a bunch of men (probably for good reason) and then almost kills an allied pilot. These events weigh so heavily on him that he cracks wise with his buddy on the phone while they are happening.

> ...most modern action heroes are 100% righteous, which is a similar thing... That's too postmodern for my taste, but it's a perspective I hadn't considered yet. Thanks for the elaboration. In my mind, this should be contrasted with Superman battling a scenery-chewing mad scientist who unleashes Destruct-o-bot to enslave Metropolis. All of golden-age Superman villains were clearly in the wrong and Superman invariabl…

A lot of the stuff early Superman did also wouldn't fly today. In many of those 30's and 40's comics, he has a habit of simplistic "might makes right" behaviors like clobbering low-level villains or simply threatening to kill or endanger them(e.g. "I'll drop you out this window -- now TALK!") in order to extract a confession in the next panel and move along the plot, and the narrative does nothing to critique his application of violence or suggest it's anything less than heroic and justified.

Here's a thread with some examples:

[0] https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/superman-165/golden-ag...

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#86

Post by visarga »

maxerickson wrote: post #48
humanrebar wrote: post #29

Moore says: > I would also observe that it is, potentially, culturally catastrophic to have the ephemera of a previous century squatting possessively on the cultural stage and refusing to allow this surely unprecedented era to develop a culture of its own, relevant and sufficient to its times. And Tolkien said: > There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish [mythology] (which greatly…

Superman is pretty much Hercules for the jet age. Born special, good at trying, wildly powerful, noble, etc.

What I don't like about Superman is his powers: they lack imagination. He's just strong (like a tractor or a crane), fast (like an airplane or rocket), has laser eyes (like... lasers), extremely sensitive hearing (like spy microphones) and X-ray vision (like microwave cameras). So he's not transcendent at all - we already have all his powers with the help of banal devices.

Superman = just a regular man + devices = Tony Stark - the creativity. When I understood this, I kind of cooled off from superman.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#87

Post by jasonkostempski »

Iv wrote: post #82

I wholeheartedly agree. More than the simplistic worldview they offer, what I I find distressing in superheroes culture (that contaminated other genres as well) is that it promotes a narrative of the providential individual, set to save the day. Teams are 4 or 5 persons max, bigger organizations are seen as either evil or incompetent. We are losing the taste for collaborative work. We are promoting the idea that only…

S.H.E.I.L.D. is a ton of people, normal and super, and they're not all on the same side all of the time. And it's not just that franchise, there's way more gray in modern movies and shows then there used to be. And I don't think most people, including kids, are as dumb as we think they are, they notice when things are pure fantasy and when things are calling into question what is actually good and bad.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#88

Post by ubernostrum »

toyg wrote: post #66
ubernostrum wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe one of the uses of mythology and epic cultural sagas in earlier ages wasn't "a kind of escapism"?

Yes, but when you look at the ratio of escapist material to material that was used to directly make sense of the world around the audience, older material seems to have a smaller amount of fluff. However, this is probably just a function of historical preservation; we only know of the masterpieces that were passed down because of them being key to philosophical research, while tons of "lighter" material has simply be…

A lot of those epics weren't to "make sense of the world". They were to transmit cultural values, and let the audience feel they were part of something bigger. For example, if you're an ordinary Roman hearing the Aeneid, what you're hearing is not a story to explain why there's thunder or how the world got made -- what you're hearing is a story that says, no matter how low you may be in the system of Roman civilization, you and all Romans share in a greater destiny.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#89

Post by interfixus »

mikeash wrote: post #31
hguant wrote: post #19

I don't see how this is news. Alan Moore has been decrying and hating on superheroes for the entirety of his career, for largely the same reasons throughout. This is great when it's communicated through his work - showing what comics could be without superheroes, or critiquing the genre from within (Watchmen and Marvelman/Miracleman reboot come to mind), but his personal disdain for the consumers of his products is o…

I think some of it is just a change in the terms we use. Take Guardians of the Galaxy for example. A fun superhero movie! Except it’s really just a science fiction movie that avoids the “SF” term. It’s pretty similar to something like Star Wars in terms of the characters and technologies shown... but for some reason, Luke Skywalker isn’t a “superhero.” Or consider the Greek myths. Instead of superheroes, they had “go…

I have only ever watched two thirds of a Starwars movie. That was some 35 years ago on television, and it struck me as utterly stupid and pointless. Bad science, bad space, bad soundwaves in space, silly costume party in a bar, idiotic storyline, and ill-conceived characters.

Didn't ever come back for more.

It was obvious to me then that this was simply a concoction of fairytales and tall stories with a new coat of Hollywood paint sprayed on. Fine by me, as long as I don't have to watch, but offensive seeing it touted as science fiction, when so clearly it is fiction with no trace of science.

Mind you, I am difficult and probably annoying. Even as a child, I never liked fairytales and fables, which would usually lose my attention about thirty seconds in. Like "Okay, someone has magic/holy/super-powers. No need to wade through a tedious story, then. Resolve the damn thing with your powers, and move on". Magic was cheating, it undermined any kind of predictable ruleset for me.

That's right. I'm on HN, and I never read a word of Tolkien, nor ventured anywhere near the films.

Re: Superheroes a 'cultural catastrophe', says comics guru Alan Moore [2014]

#90

Post by pfarnsworth »

visarga wrote: post #86
maxerickson wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Superman is pretty much Hercules for the jet age. Born special, good at trying, wildly powerful, noble, etc.

What I don't like about Superman is his powers: they lack imagination. He's just strong (like a tractor or a crane), fast (like an airplane or rocket), has laser eyes (like... lasers), extremely sensitive hearing (like spy microphones) and X-ray vision (like microwave cameras). So he's not transcendent at all - we already have all his powers with the help of banal devices. Superman = just a regular man + devices = To…

First off, they lack imagination only because he's almost 100 years old by now. That's like saying Zeus is an unimaginative god because controlling lighting is so overdone now.

Also, it means you haven't really read any great Superman stories. In the last 10-15 years, there have been many amazing stories centering around Superman. All-Star Superman by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely is probably top of the list.

Also, look at the Injustice 2 video game for a new take on Superman, my jaw dropped at how they took Superman off the edge.

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