The tech sector might be evil • Hacker News Board

Re: The tech sector might be evil

#81

Post by patkai » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 9:30 AM UTC

mudil wrote: post #42

Of all these players, Apple is positioned best for the future, and I think, it is a testament to Tim Cook's vision. Under Cook, Apple has consistently positioned itself as a guardian of people's privacy. Big changes are coming. The way things are developing, it will be the state vs the big tech, because the Big Tech thinks it can use the data of citizens and it belong to the Big Tech. The state thinks otherwise. It i…

You are onto something. I think "the way things are developing", big tech and gov might fall into each others arms - what a beautiful couple. Imagine what a business _that_ would be! Also, I'm surprised this scenario is rarely if ever discussed, I mean that corporate government type of thing in the Continuum tv series.

Re: The tech sector might be evil

#82

Post by throwaway613834 » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 9:30 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #61

throwaway613834 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My replies would be the following: 1. Right, I realize this. That's one part of why they're still my friends! 2. I never said my friends are evil because of this. I in fact said quite the opposite. 3. The question is not whether something can be used for "evil", but whether it is . If it is, ideally people shouldn't be contributing to it. 4. I have no idea. I'm also not sure how this comes into play.

> 3. The question is not whether something can be used for "evil", but whether it is. If it is, ideally people shouldn't be contributing to it. This is difficult, though. If a thing is used for evil, but also for good, where do you draw the line and say the bad is outweighing the good and the thing has to go?

> This is difficult, though. If a thing is used for evil, but also for good, where do you draw the line and say the bad is outweighing the good and the thing has to go?

That's secondary to the question I'm asking. The question I'm asking is how to even bring up the topic in the first place. If I can get that far I think I've already done pretty well.

Re: The tech sector might be evil

#83

Post by ionised » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 9:31 AM UTC

taway_1212 wrote: post #45

mirimir wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soldiers typically have a duty to refuse immoral orders.

A duty to whom? In most armies and wars, insisting to refuse an order, moral or not, will get you in front of a firing squad (or, if it's a really civilized army, in jail).

The allied powers collectively decided that I was just following orders was not a credible defence of anything during the Nuremberg trials.

Re: The tech sector might be evil

#84

Post by ionised » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 9:33 AM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #22

throwaway613834 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I know. But it's also true that if they tried to do the opposite of what they were told (or if they just refused) then they'd get fired. So what do you do?

The most productive thing: Voice dissent. Ensure the higher-ups have thought through their position and the consequences. Assume they know things you don't. Ultimately, follow the order. Once it's their call, you're absolved of any responsibility. Both morally and in every meaningful sense.

That sounds ridiculously cynical and half-arsed to me.

This accomplishes nothing.

Re: The tech sector might be evil

#85

Post by kevingadd » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 9:45 AM UTC

apersona wrote: post #63

elefanten wrote: post #20

Regulation and oversight is good. Continually reevaluating whether these companies are being good stewards of the information they hold is also good. But I worry more about a heavy-handed overreaction than the present course we're on. In many ways it could be more dangerous to cripple or break up these companies: Fragmenting that data among smaller entities with weaker security is bad. Letting the vacuum (probably) b…

very much this. I think the how people view companies as a whole as "evil" is alarming. Technology is neutral, and companies make the world better and worse.

Technology is only neutral if built to be neutral. People build non-neutral technology all the time, either intentionally or unintentionally.

If you take a huge random data set and train an algorithm off it, the algorithm is going to reflect the biases of the data, even though the algorithm - and the technology used to run the algorithm - is completely neutral in theory. If you accept this as a problem and try to solve it, you're taking an explicit stance of non-neutrality - something is wrong with the output of this algorithm based on my criteria, regardless of whether it is implemented correctly.

For many real-world situations, neutral technology is the opposite of what is required to solve problems. Which is a real bummer, since it means that you have to make difficult decisions in addition to building a good piece of technology.

Governments are already using "neutral" technology to make important decisions about people's lives [1]. But how neutral is it, really, if the data we feed into it for training is biased or incorrect?

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/us/backlash-in-wisconsin-...

Re: The tech sector might be evil

#86

Post by mrtksn » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 9:45 AM UTC

davedx wrote: post #2

Good summary of the current political climate around the tech sector. To be honest, this has been a long time coming -- I've been reading pieces with disdain for "Silicon Valley technocrats" for a while now. It is picking up pace now, though... and the EU has already fired quite a few shots. "I left out Twitter because it’s not actually a company, it’s a dysfunctional non-profit that accidentally provi…

If a company is not making money but there are lots of people trying to keep it around it probably means that the company is making money for these people but it's not reflected to the books directly or the payment is due for later time.

It's bit of like building roads that on the books may look like unprofitable venture but the utility they provide makes possible for other businesses to flourish so the roads are kept build and maintained.

Do we really want to see Twitter gone? It's service is invaluable but it feels like they should be state-run or non-profit run or run by a company like Apple that makes it's money from directly selling something to it's users. Not only because Twitter fails to directly make money but also because it harness immense power to shape the human population(but they are not as good as Facebook in this).

Re: The tech sector might be evil

#87

Post by gaius » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 9:49 AM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #79

Data Science is evil :) There are a couple of big "tech-is-evil" forces that I think are responsible for a good chunk of this sentiment. The first is advertising. Ads are slightly evil anyway. You're going to make us watch an ad during intermission, and that'll make us buy your brand of washing powder? Sounds kind of evil. It never sat right with people, but it funded free news and entertainment so... we're used to t…

Using ML/DS to de-anonymize people is very definitely evil.

Re: The tech sector might be evil

#88

Post by rmc » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 9:56 AM UTC

dagw wrote: post #77

microtonal wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just stop pretending that working at {Google, Facebook, Amazon, ...} is the highest goal that a tech person can strife for. A see a lot of students who seem to have that as their goal in life. Also, we have to be honest with ourselves. While we (as a community) were hating Microsoft, we made Google our tech darling. Now they are ethically probably as rotten as Microsoft were in the early ~2000s. We should stop puttin…

A see a lot of students who seem to have that as their goal in life. I wonder if that really is their goal? I think if you pushed them on it you'll probably find that their true life goal was to earn a massive salary while hanging out with smart people and fucking around with cool tech. It just so happens that (they believe that) {Google, Facebook, Amazon, ...} will offer them that. I suspect there is a good reason t…

They will also provide free food, a laundry service, etc. It's basically like having your mother look after you!

Re: The tech sector might be evil

#89

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 9:57 AM UTC

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #40

geomark wrote: post #21

Not to mention the many (ex) friends working for "defense" contractors. Ex because I really can't be friends with them any longer. Evil quotes deployed because calling it defense is a farce considering what the systems they are developing are used for.

If persons employer determines your friendship status with them, then maybe they are better off not being associated with you.

[deleted]

Re: The tech sector might be evil

#90

Post by mbrock » Thu, Sep 21, 2017, 10:03 AM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #80

mbrock wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about your thoughts on reconciling libertarian ideals with the desire to limit the power of corporations.

Libertarianism gives me a philosophical foundation to reason about political issues that is outside the usual partisan structure. It's also an ideal , not a club of people wanting to gain, hold, and exert power. So you never reach a perfect world. If you want to be a libertarian, you'd better be prepared to compromise. With everybody. Both of these attributes differ us from most political folks. I will continue to us…

That's exactly my assumption, and it's one of my standing questions for people I encounter who align themselves with libertarianism, and I'm always genuinely curious.

It's because I find it a very interesting and difficult question how to approach the danger of individual liberty leading, through a sequence of steps none of which is by itself illiberal, leads to the establishment of large and powerful corporations that de facto destroy liberty just as much as any state.

I agree that big business and big government are becoming conflated, although I guess they have been since the beginning of global capitalism and the founding of the limited liability East India Company in 1600...

The distinction between state power and private power seems essential to libertarian ideology, so it's interesting to hear your take.