Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died • Hacker News Board

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#81

Post by _5ysi » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

bildung wrote: post #71

_5ysi wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get this line of thinking, it just seems like a denial of globalization, automation, and economics. Instead of helping the workers it more seeks to punish American capitalists--including all the people like me who hope to retire in the future with investments that grow. When the rest of the world is developed enough that a union could span the entire globe, then this would at least be logical again. As…

> I don't really get this line of thinking, it just seems like a denial of globalization, automation, and economics. So what is the qualitative change in these three factors that changed so much in your opinion? Globalization was important for the US from its very inception (example: European price and production developments where a big factor in the Panic of 1819[1]). And productivity growth has been more or less c…

I think it has been the gradual march of technological progress and globalization. For example remember the civil war was largely fought over protectionist trade policies for northern manufacturers. And that was in the age of sail when many goods would not even make if from North America to Europe. Similar protectionist policies would be unthinkable now. Also the rise of America from being an upstart industrial power like China and India are today to being a wealthy nation with (relatively) high standards of living for its low and middle class.

Unions are fascinating, honestly I am surprised that the era in which they were strong ever existed so early in history. They rely on having a monopoly on labor or at least a large percentage of it but with modern transportation the size of the labor pool is just too large and too poor for a relatively small, wealthy nation like the US to organize it.

If I had to point to seminal events causing the change, they would be construction of the Suez and Panama Canal, MacArthur's reconstruction of Japan, and Nixon opening trade with China. This last one could be the reason we are all still alive today, but clearly the American middle and lower class have born the brunt of the costs relative to where we all were after WWII.

Btw thanks for the discussion. Has been a while since I read about panic of 1819! I also blame the aspects of Keynesian economics that do not constrain the growth of government debt for increasing the power of existing wealth relative to the working class, but I admit that is a more questionable opinion.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#82

Post by Kadin » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

_5ysi wrote: post #40

Having worked at two manufacturers in the Midwest, anecdotally the majority of forklift drivers, line workers on specific lines, and even many white collar office roles were filled by temp agencies. A similar structure existed for engineering too; we would have a problem and the engineering firm with workers under the same roof would develop a solution. For the temp workers the motivation was always very clear and ve…

> what other ways do we have of increasing the bargaining position of labor?

You tighten the labor market.

It's not coincidental that unions, which depend on a tight labor market for a bargaining position (striking is fundamentally their real weapon), have been on a downhill trend since basically the same time that trade laws were changed to favor capital, via removing barriers to both foreign labor and foreign trade. In some cases the labor supply is slackened by bringing in more workers, in some cases by just offshoring production to a place where the labor market is already slack.

Most of the reasons used to justify this were related to the West's perceived existential struggle against Communism: it was necessary to open the door to China trade because that was a wedge against the Soviets; NAFTA was necessary to secure America's standing "as world champion of the free-market cause" (ref. http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/09/business/worldbusiness/09i...) as a hedge against an increasingly multipolar world in the 1990s; continued rounds of deals, up until very recently with the failure of the TPP, have always been justified similarly.

Though I am not intimately familiar with Canadian politics historically, I assume that the justifications there were similar (and with significant arm-twisting from their southern neighbor).

Intriguingly, the necessary sacrifices for American leadership (let's not call it 'hegemony'), in the form of the cost of economic subsidies to Western allies necessary to keep them toeing the free market line, have always seemed to fall on American -- and Canadian, apparently -- workers, and benefited businesses and business owners. Workers are constantly reassured that, despite appearances, these deals have been good for the country, and somehow by extension also them personally, but this explanation is starting to wear thin, as it becomes more and more apparent that the gains have gone to a small portion of the country at the expense of a great many. The gig is seemingly up.

Pro-trade, pro-business parties (such as the British Columbia Liberal Party, mentioned in the article as a recipient of donations from the factory owners) should take note of the current state of the US Republican Party, and take steps not to overplay their hand. While the gains made by businesses and capital owners at the expense of industrial workers are impressive, history suggests that going down this road too far leads to what we might politely call a "disruptive overcorrection", either to the political hard right or hard left. In the US, we have seen this frustration elect the first unashamed populist and trade skeptic of the modern era (well, at least, someone the electorate apparently thought was a populist; time will tell); if things had gone a bit differently we might have gotten free-trade skepticism in the form of a Socialist (Sanders).

The current path, or just telling workers in the industrialized world to suck it up until they hit wage parity with the developing world, is not sustainable. Governments that try may find themselves replaced by governments that don't.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#83

Post by djrogers » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 3:30 PM UTC

m12k wrote: post #46

mabbo wrote: post #3

I don't understand how this strategy works. Company A doesn't want to hire employees because employees have rights. Instead, they hire temps from Company B who abuses their employees' rights. Why doesn't the government start policing the abuse of rights by Company B? Why doesn't the government pass laws that acknowledge that these employees are truly employees of Company A?

Because the government has been hi-jacked by an anti-government party?

This is partisan politicizing at it's worst. The practices at this facility have been going on for decades, through many governments. It's a failure of government pure and simple, and blaming it on one side or the other does nothing to help.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#84

Post by ranit » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

m12k wrote: post #46

mabbo wrote: post #3

I don't understand how this strategy works. Company A doesn't want to hire employees because employees have rights. Instead, they hire temps from Company B who abuses their employees' rights. Why doesn't the government start policing the abuse of rights by Company B? Why doesn't the government pass laws that acknowledge that these employees are truly employees of Company A?

Because the government has been hi-jacked by an anti-government party?

In Canada?

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#85

Post by crispyambulance » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 3:35 PM UTC

castle-bravo wrote: post #42

walterbell wrote: post #29

> Fiera’s current clients include some of the continent’s biggest brands including Dunkin’ Donuts and Sobeys; over the years it has made pastries for Costco, Tim Hortons, Metro, Walmart, and Loblaw. Its factories churn out baked goods by the truckload, destined for markets across North America and around the world. They can produce 2 million bagels alone per day. Retail boycotts have been used against clothing sweats…

Consider getting a bread maker: Keurig for bread.

Bake it yourself or there are plenty of bakeries (and supermarkets) that actually bake their bread and pastries on site. Its pretty easy to tell, or you can just ask. Support your local baker.

The factory in question supplies places like Dunkin donuts and highway rest-stops. Much better to go hungry than eat that stuff-- aside from the labor abuses, its just bad stuff.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#86

Post by ceejayoz » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #33

dingo_bat wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I own a company, I can justify anything short of illegal activities to increase profit. If you don't want companies to behave in a certain way, get it outlawed.

You can justify some illegal activities, it's not a crime if nobody finds out / cares.

> it's not a crime if nobody finds out / cares

Sure it is. Someone living off-grid who kills their kid and successfully disposes of the body might get away with it, but it's still a horrific crime.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#87

Post by frandroid » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #20

jonssons wrote: post #16

as an ex-temp worker: that's how it is. You want to work, you have to put up with the stuff they throw at you. No. It's not fair. No. It's not just. It's for the poor. It's for the uneducated. It's for the immigrants. It's for the vulnerable people, because they are easy to exploit. They don't know their own rights. Temp offices should not be allowed to exist.

>Temp offices should not be allowed to exist. I disagree. Working for a temp agency doing catering, sports venue and whatnot is generally more stable income than working for several places like that directly. Temp agencies work well for industries where demand is variable but predictable. Companies that use temps to fill their baseline staffing requirements to skirt legal/ethical requirements are terrible though.

Catering companies, sports venues, etc. can still have you on-call. The difference between a temp agency and a catering company is that it completely severs the employment relation which protects the workers by law.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#88

Post by frandroid » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

err4nt wrote: post #60

FLGMwt wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you're trying to convey?

Every single woodworking shop, electric shop, factory, etc I've been in they always make a big deal about _never_ wearing loose-fitting clothing, long hair or necklaces or bracelets - anything you wouldn't want torn off you at a fast rate of speed with force you remove or restrain. This is common sense and common instruction - I'm not sure what employment safety laws say about this. If the cause of her death was loos…

That's the point of the article, I think. Because Fiera doesn't have an employment relationship with the employee, their workers' comp rates will never increase, no matter what happens to the workers. So they don't take the kinds of precautions which would have prevented this worker from dying. I mean, it also severs to human connection between workers and managers, where they just see workers as a dispensable resource, so there also less every day care about safety.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#89

Post by _5ysi » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

Kadin wrote: post #82

_5ysi wrote: post #40

Having worked at two manufacturers in the Midwest, anecdotally the majority of forklift drivers, line workers on specific lines, and even many white collar office roles were filled by temp agencies. A similar structure existed for engineering too; we would have a problem and the engineering firm with workers under the same roof would develop a solution. For the temp workers the motivation was always very clear and ve…

> what other ways do we have of increasing the bargaining position of labor? You tighten the labor market. It's not coincidental that unions, which depend on a tight labor market for a bargaining position (striking is fundamentally their real weapon), have been on a downhill trend since basically the same time that trade laws were changed to favor capital, via removing barriers to both foreign labor and foreign trade…

I couldn't agree more with everything you have said here!

On the justifications for opening international trade, I believe, contrarily, that Nixon was one of the greatest president of the 20th century and that opening trade with China was a most important decision affecting humanity's survival. But since then, government policy has seemed blind to the fact that the working class has been paying all of the costs.

I agree we need to do something in the meantime, before global prosperity is able to rise close enough to our own. Conveniently, I also think the current organization of global fiat currencies is exacerbating the effects of globalization on American workers and preventing them from benefiting from technological advances which would otherwise be minimizing the problem. If we could get our government spending under control, then set the target inflation rate to zero, and even be unafraid of minor deflation caused by manufacturing and efficiency improvements...this would do a lot to blunt the growing inequality between existing wealth and work. Trade deficits financed by fiat currency would have a supply/demand correction if we didn't provide so many short circuits for reserve note capital to return to the US.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#90

Post by Jeremy1026 » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 3:56 PM UTC

The last letter sent from Fiera to The Star[1] is scathing. Fiera is trying so very hard to play the victim to The Stars mean and "underhanded" tactics to get information about their operations. It probably would have served them better to just remain silent instead of sending this response.

[1] http://projects.thestar.com/temp-employment-agencies/letters...