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Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

uanews.arizona.edu

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Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#81

Post by Frogolocalypse »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #27
ue_ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough, redistribution isn't a Socialist policy; if the workers (proletariat) control and own the social means of production, i.e not a state which is clearly not under control of the workers (i.e not a dictatorship of the proletariat ) then redistribition would not be necessary unless agreed to on a voluntary basis by the community. Instead, we see there is still wage labour. Thrre is still money, whic…

Sounds like you are talking about a pure idealized version of socialism. However, I referred to Venezuela as an example of state socialism . Let me quote the wiki article so we both know we are talking about the same thing: "State socialism is a classification for any socialist political and economic perspective advocating state ownership of the means of production either as a temporary measure in the transition from…

Sounds like you're not talking about socialism at all.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#82

Post by School-Cotton »

swiftting wrote: post #76

Congratulations to Noam Chomsky! I remember when he was giving a talk at Columbia university and the line for entry was literally around the block ! Great man.

The redness of Arizona comes from the affluent suburbs of Phoenix; it doesn't come from Tucson (where Chomsky is presumably moving).

If everywhere south of the Gila River (i.e., the Gadsden Purchase) became its own state, it would be deep blue.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#83

Post by Frogolocalypse »

RobertoG wrote: post #58
throw_awayfwerq wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you can say the same for supposedly capitalist countries. I mean US elections are a farse of external (no, not the russians) buying our elections for their economic or geopolitical purposes. Now riddle me this. Name me one failed socialist country that failed (as I believe all will) without massive Western intervention to ruin their economy. We're kinda pricks, aren't we?

I don't think it's fair to blame external influence always in those cases. It's not honest. Venezuela's situation main blame should go, in my opinion, to the people in charge in Venezuela. My impression, is that they really don't know what they are doing. Never liked Chavez, but compared to the current one, the guy was a genius. Other countries have showed that you can work discretely and apply politics that help the…

I'd like to think I have the same outlook for most of the places that I've lived. Mostly it gets better, because mostly, people are good. But people f up, and then they make it worse... That is life. Reading a bit of chomsky helped me form that outlook.

The world used to be much much worse. The world is getting better and better. Statistically speaking. We literally live in a golden age. For a good portion it seriously seriously sucks. But that ratio is getting lower and lower yes? 500 million people raised out of poverty in china alone over the past 30 years. That's gotta count for something, doesn't it?

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#84

Post by Synaesthesia »

ant6n wrote: post #75
eighthnate wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However he has been proved devastatingly wrong about Venezuela and as of today won't admit the problems with state socialism. I hope his new students realize this. Doesn't the problems with state socialism result from being attack by state capitalism which tend to be much stronger nations? The US and europe attacking venezuela and blaming their failures on state socialism is like blaming democracy for ukraine's los…

China is not a socialist country.

The point is not so much that these countries are socialist, I agree they’re not, although they have some aspects of socialism. The point is they’re not integrated into the western system. That’s the big distinction or cause of schism.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#85

Post by purple-again »

ArialAnemone wrote: post #60
shkibb wrote: post #44

Does anybody else find these sorts of discussions to be just fundamentally cringey as hell? On both sides. Stuff like "We agree mainstream black culture is terrible." Like I don't think either would have the guts to say that in front of a black person.

How could it not be terrible? Black america is screwed. The rate of fatherlessness is apocalyptic. Especially when you combine that with the fact that single parent households, with the mother as the parent, produce far more criminals and mentally ill per "family" than households with both parents. Black america is screwed to be a perpetual underclass. imo.

Barack Obama and Neil Tysons families are part of black America. Those problems you point out are a huge problem in the massive rural trailer parks filled with white people.

They are problems associated with poverty not with blacks. It's easy to confound the two since such a large portion of the black population lives in poverty.

How you frame it IS important because yes it's a serious problem that plagues the black community but no it's not a problem created by the blacks. You know damn well how it was created.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#87

Post by fatjokes »

otalp wrote: post #2

He's 88, still mentally very sharp and probably moved there for the weather(aside from the great department filled with old students). His work ethic is incredible, he spends 5 hours a day responding to emails from the public- I've received a detailed response every time I've sent one. The amount of time he spends engaging with even terribly misinformed(but well meaning) people is truly astounding, and unparalleled a…

Heh, reading his sharp responses you forget his age. Then you see him use dated terms like 'Orientals' and remember :).

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#88

Post by Synaesthesia »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #5

Chomsky is a great critic of social issues like imperialism, manufactured consent, and state capitalism. However he has been proved devastatingly wrong about Venezuela and as of today won't admit the problems with state socialism. I hope his new students realize this.

Actually under Chavez a lot of improvements were made thanks to state socialism. Chomsky’s position in Venezuela currently is that it has a lot of problems, and he’s criticized the authoritative directions the government has taken, but he believes the US should be trying to help, and not start fires there.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#89

Post by galacticpony2 »

RobertoG wrote: post #78
galacticpony2 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialism has failed 100% of the time. You can't get worse than that. Even if capitalist systems failed to improve the lives of the poor 95% of the time, it would still have a better track record. In reality, the most successful countries are all capitalist and free markets have lifted more people out of poverty than anything else. The fact that some autocratic countries also employ capitalism doesn't change that. Ca…

It seems to me that you define socialism as whatever it fails and capitalism as whatever it works. Pure capitalism has never existed neither, so we have a spectrum of possibilities. I would argue that the better system is the one that improve the lives or the people and, that should be the measure. Even if capitalism was the definitive answer, that doesn't mean that we should stop criticizing it. If you have a system…

> It seems to me that you define socialism as whatever it fails and capitalism as whatever it works.

No socialist state that called itself a socialist state has been a success. None. Zero. There are democratic countries that may at some point have "social democrats" or even "socialists" in power. These countries may have passed some laws that are "socialist" in spirit, but virtually all of those countries employ a capitalist free enterprise market. Then you have countries like China that call itself communist and still employ capitalism.

Yet, socialist thinkers are pre-occupied with the perceived evils of capitalism (and finding means to abolish it), even though it has outperformed any socialist economic model thus far conceived. Capitalism is blamed for practically every ill, including the failure of socialism itself.

> So, when you criticism socialism, remember that a lot of countries in the world redistribute resources in a not market way very successfully. Call that whatever you want.

Like which? I'm not going to call any form of redistribution "socialism", like some people like to do.

Re: Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona

#90

Post by jack9 »

ant6n wrote: post #75
eighthnate wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However he has been proved devastatingly wrong about Venezuela and as of today won't admit the problems with state socialism. I hope his new students realize this. Doesn't the problems with state socialism result from being attack by state capitalism which tend to be much stronger nations? The US and europe attacking venezuela and blaming their failures on state socialism is like blaming democracy for ukraine's los…

China is not a socialist country.

I'm not sure how that statement can be taken seriously. Puppet leaders of industry, are extensions of the party. The ability to act independently isn't much different than the leeway given to a US executive agency head.

Socialism isn't ever absolute...as if the Nordic Model isn't "socialist" either.

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