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Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

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Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#81

Post by usmeteora »

_0ffh wrote: post #74
ryderm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it such a huge deal that most women are not interested in technology? If this is because they have been systematically discriminated against in tech and primed at a young age with BS like "cars are for boys and dolls are for girls" then yes, absolutely this is a huge deal. If it just so happened that they were not interested because they don't have the "technology gene" then this would not be a big deal, but tha…

>all the evidence points to the former That is patently false, and you should not make factual claims under these circumstances. These claims add to the noise, not the signal. The scientific evidence for innate psychological differences between girls and boys is overwhelming. There is a clear scientific consensus on this. I cannot fathom how this can still be controversial. Specifically about your "cars vs dolls" exa…

This is true and I read a book based off of this study. However, how does this prove that a female is less capable of being a good software engineer?

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#82

Post by [deleted] »

kthejoker2 wrote: post #80
threatofrain wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course Bay Area people hate ideological diversity? As opposed to religious North Caroliners? Are you telling me that Bay Area culture should look to North Carolina to learn a little more about what diversity and tolerance look like? What's your sense of scale here? What does ideological plurality mean to you? What does North Carolina secularism look like? Does North Carolina have a cultural embrace of secularism?…

He's saying two wrongs don't make a right. How hard is that to understand?

[deleted]

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#83

Post by heartbreak »

threatofrain wrote: post #78
fennecfoxen wrote: post #14

Google is substantially located in the Bay Area. Of course they hate ideological diversity, in practice if not in principle. It is an attitude common in their workforce. This is a tendentious statement, so I will relate my own experience. Once upon a time I was working in California, at a tiny startup, and was reading some election results from "back home" in North Carolina, which had just passed Amendment One by abo…

Of course Bay Area people hate ideological diversity? As opposed to religious North Caroliners? Are you telling me that Bay Area culture should look to North Carolina to learn a little more about what diversity and tolerance look like? What's your sense of scale here? What does ideological plurality mean to you? What does North Carolina secularism look like? Does North Carolina have a cultural embrace of secularism?…

Where did OP say anything about looking to NC as a cultural role model? S/he was making a point that people in SF are intolerant, not that people in NC are tolerant.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#85

Post by heartbreak »

deebeeoh wrote: post #79
fennecfoxen wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The worst thing here The worst thing? Suppose there is a referendum in, I don't know, Venezuela or something; that's adequately hypothetical. Imagine they put a referendum banning gay marriage on the ballots in Venezuela, and it passes with similar levels of turnout and support. There's a guy in your office from Venezuela who's reading about it, a little bit troubled by the news, and you say, "wow, I guess 60% of V…

Fighting their way out of their shack in the woods while, in their spare time taking a moment to vote against gay marriage? What a misunderstood nobility... People are going to a lot of trouble to defend having lousy values. It doesn't mean that's all you are, that one opinion, but having other aspects to your life doesn't let you off the hook. We all have troubles.

Yeah, and no one is going to let you off the hook for your intolerance of other cultures.

You’re not going to change anyone’s mind with this attitude. If you really want progress, and not just to look down on people, why not take a more constructive approach?

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#86

Post by threatofrain »

heartbreak wrote: post #83
threatofrain wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course Bay Area people hate ideological diversity? As opposed to religious North Caroliners? Are you telling me that Bay Area culture should look to North Carolina to learn a little more about what diversity and tolerance look like? What's your sense of scale here? What does ideological plurality mean to you? What does North Carolina secularism look like? Does North Carolina have a cultural embrace of secularism?…

Where did OP say anything about looking to NC as a cultural role model? S/he was making a point that people in SF are intolerant, not that people in NC are tolerant.

If you say that someone is short, it goes to say that you have a comparison model, and that something is tall. Measuring SF as intolerant naturally invites a comparative measure, and here we are discussing how inviting SF is to North Carolina Christians.

I am discussing vice versa by asking mere questions.

It might enrich the discussion to say that it's still illegal for men to have sex with men in North Carolina, it's just unenforceable. North Carolina is also working to say that sodomy laws are not unconstitutional.

The Christians I know around the Bay Area are under no such threat. If anything, churches are enclaves of extreme quality in the Bay Area. It goes to show what a fertile ground this is for diversity.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#87

Post by koonsolo »

usmeteora wrote: post #77
koonsolo wrote: post #19

Why does US have these diversity problems? Is it such a huge deal that most women are not interested in technology? Is it such a huge deal that you have to work with a few women? Is it such a huge deal that as a technical woman, you have to work mostly with men? I can tell you, in Belgium, in my experience and what I hear, this is not an issue whatsoever. Most women I worked with actually preferred working in teams o…

This is interesting. I'm a female Electrical Engineer in the United States. Females are obviously a minority in the Engineering teams, but interestingly enough, there are a few older female Engineers I know who came from Eastern Europe after spending 10-15 years doing Engineering there, and said they never had an issue with sexism until they came to the U.S. I'm not sure whether an elaboration by them would indicate…

> but I WOULD care if a coworker propogated a document saying I'm inferior to them because of my biology as a female.

You wouldn't if you were working in Europe.

If this would happen here, all colleagues would have a great laugh out of this document, sharing it with others to show "What crazy John has done this time, making a whole document about his retarded idea."

If this guy is the asocial hunchback working in his office all day, avoiding others, but none the less doing great work, the company probably would keep him. Because everyone already knows what kind of a nutcase he is.

If he is working with other colleagues, this is probably a reason to fire him. First of all because this is not professional whatsoever, and because this obviously shows that he is not able to work with other people.

It this is a manager or HR person, he would be fired on the spot. Everyone would agree with that. If not what would raise some eyebrows too.

I fully understand that in US, you would care, but this is also the reason why the whole situation in US so surreal to me. I read that some coworkers even agree with them. And that makes it a problem indeed. It is just strange that US and EU cultures are so alike, but still have such a big difference in how female colleagues are treated at the workplace.

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#88

Post by anon12345690 »

jsiepkes wrote: post #3

A lot of people outraged but apparently no one was outraged enough to leak the document. Can't be that hard to leak the text in it anonymously.

Even worse, all the outraged folk say you shouldnt bother trying to find it - guess its not worth forming our own opinions

https://twitter.com/rakyll/status/893324341630218241

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#89

Post by anon12345690 »

ryderm wrote: post #41
koonsolo wrote: post #19

Why does US have these diversity problems? Is it such a huge deal that most women are not interested in technology? Is it such a huge deal that you have to work with a few women? Is it such a huge deal that as a technical woman, you have to work mostly with men? I can tell you, in Belgium, in my experience and what I hear, this is not an issue whatsoever. Most women I worked with actually preferred working in teams o…

> Is it such a huge deal that most women are not interested in technology? If this is because they have been systematically discriminated against in tech and primed at a young age with BS like "cars are for boys and dolls are for girls" then yes, absolutely this is a huge deal. If it just so happened that they were not interested because they don't have the "technology gene" then this would not be a big deal, but tha…

This has been proven false several times. Men and women are also biologically different. This doesnt mean they're limited in capability but that they have slight natural biases. Why is this such a hard reality to accept?

Re: Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

#90

Post by laughinghan »

koonsolo wrote: post #58
ryderm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it such a huge deal that most women are not interested in technology? If this is because they have been systematically discriminated against in tech and primed at a young age with BS like "cars are for boys and dolls are for girls" then yes, absolutely this is a huge deal. If it just so happened that they were not interested because they don't have the "technology gene" then this would not be a big deal, but tha…

> but that is nonsense and all the evidence points to the former. First of all, what evidence? And secondly, does it? (Like the horrific experiment on David Reimer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer ) I have 1 son and 2 daughters, and I have plenty of nieces and cousins. The personality of each child has a bigger impact on how they behave than I had imagined. And also, boys are way different than girls. They…

> First of all, what evidence?

You might be interested in this blogpost which cites 27 different peer-reviewed scientific papers supporting an argument that social priming can explain much of observed gender gaps in STEM (and another 9 more scientific papers just to flesh out the argument): http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/picture-yourself-as-a-s...

> "Make sure it has less to do with computers" > someone felt that it's a sexist remark

Ignoring for a moment whether that's "sexist", can we agree that if those 27 scientific papers are to be believed, such remarks directly hurt women in computer science who would otherwise be do better?

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