Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case • Hacker News Board

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#81

Post by marclove » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 11:11 AM UTC

ryantownsend wrote: post #78

obiefernandez wrote: post #23

Importantly: 1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty Now if you're interested in this case, read on... There are hundreds of independent yellow pages (including Yellow Pages United) that legally use the term Yellow Pages and the "walking fingers" logo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Pages My partners have been doing direct mail…

Not really related to the story, but can someone explain to me why Americans put '$425MM', where does the second M come from? Here in the UK we'd just put '£425m'? Just curious because I saw DHH use MM too.

In a lot of banking and finance, they use "M" to abbreviate thousands and "MM" to abbreviate millions. It's based on the roman numeral "M", so "MM" is meant to represent "a thousand thousands". Of course if you know anything about Roman numerals, "MM" is in fact = 2,000.

I believe the appropriate abbreviation is "$425M", not "$425m". The AP Stylebook avoids the issue altogether and dictates that million, billion, etc. should all be spelled out and in all lowercase.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#82

Post by marclove » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 11:16 AM UTC

oldgregg wrote: post #19

If the claim of HALF A BILLION dollar fraud is true it seems unlikely that Obie would not know something about it. If my buddies and business associates made that kind of money I sure as hell would know everything about it. HOWEVER, this does not diminish HashRocket or Obie's work-- the Rails Way is THE book that taught me Rails. Hashrocket has contributed so much to the ecosystem I sure hope that doesn't change. edi…

I believe that's the relevance of the sweep account issue. If you're using the "deposits" into a sweep account as the basis for measuring the supposed & claimed "fraud", its an incredibly overinflated figure.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#83

Post by igravious » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 11:27 AM UTC

obiefernandez wrote: post #23

Importantly: 1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty Now if you're interested in this case, read on... There are hundreds of independent yellow pages (including Yellow Pages United) that legally use the term Yellow Pages and the "walking fingers" logo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Pages My partners have been doing direct mail…

I think that it would be wise of you to stay publicly silent and to only state your position after the legal system has done its job and to take action then if necessary. I am a neutral third party, I think that you would be wise to heed my advice.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#84

Post by oscardelben » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 11:57 AM UTC

Here in Europe there's a company that sends out something similar. For example in Italy it's called "Registro italiano delle imprese in internet". I mistakenly registered with them and they started sending me invoices of more than $1000 dollars each (which I never paid).

I did some research and they have been declared illegal in many countries but somehow never got charged. If these guys are doing the same thing, then I don't know if it's illegal or not in the USA but it surely is something unethical with the only goal of spilling money from people.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#85

Post by ravemastah » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 12:08 PM UTC

obiefernandez wrote: post #23

Importantly: 1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty Now if you're interested in this case, read on... There are hundreds of independent yellow pages (including Yellow Pages United) that legally use the term Yellow Pages and the "walking fingers" logo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Pages My partners have been doing direct mail…

I think it's pretty foolish of Obie to defend his friends here so publicly. Even if this is all legal and they are eventually vindicated, most folks know of these sorts of "businesses" and very few people find them upstanding ventures. It makes me question what completely legal, but of questionable value, business practices Hashrocket themselves conducts?

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#86

Post by ruhuvian » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 1:01 PM UTC

What is most disturbing is that these weren't far-away investors of Hashrocket. One was the CFO and they were directly funding Hashrocket since its inception. As Obie's business partners, that's pretty shady. And whether its determined that they were within their legal limits or not, we've all been made aware of how sleazy the whole operation is. Hashrocket would do well to distance themselves from this stuff as much as possible, and declare that they will no longer receive money from an operation that survives on scamming people out of their money. The more Obie shouts to the world, "These are my FRIENDS", the worse he looks.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#87

Post by bombs » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 1:07 PM UTC

Encosia wrote: post #55

rmoriz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's technically interesting: http://www.bizyellow.com/ looks at first view like a .NET app (.aspx) but after a closer look it's definitly a Ruby on Rails app.

Out of curiosity, what makes that look like a .NET app to you? The cross-domain links to ASPX pages or something else? Not disagreeing, just interested.

.aspx is to ASP.NET what .php is to PHP and .cfm is to ColdFusion.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#88

Post by Confusion » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 1:12 PM UTC

ryanjmo wrote: post #29

obiefernandez wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They produced, published and mailed out a real 1000+ page book, twice a year, and I'm aware that it cost them millions of dollars and lots of manpower to do so. We can debate the usefulness of paper-based yellow pages in this day and age until the cows come home, but either way it would not mean they committed fraud.

I do not think the pervious commentor was implying that they committed fraud; he or she was simply saying that they likely benefit from deceiving people. Many legit companies benefit from deceiving people.

I think it's rather rude of you and that previous commentor to assert such things. A company does not 'deceive' its customers just because you think the service they offer is useless and could only possibly be sold as a result of grandiose claims of effectiveness and other false pretenses.

In fact, in this day and age, large parts of the worlds still work the same way they worked ten years ago. Time and time again, we internet savvy folks grossly overestimate the amount of business and consumption that has shifted to 'the web'. Yes, Amazon has a revenue of 24.5 billion. Do you realize what the total size of that market is?

I know someone that still makes money printing books of coupons that the receivers can redeem to obtains discounts, rebates, etc. If you honestely believe that companies only invest in that out of custom and the false belief that it still yields results, then you are out of your mind. You are mistaking intelligence for knowledge and making claims about a subject you actually don't know anything about.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#89

Post by Encosia » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 2:29 PM UTC

bombs wrote: post #87

Encosia wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what makes that look like a .NET app to you? The cross-domain links to ASPX pages or something else? Not disagreeing, just interested.

.aspx is to ASP.NET what .php is to PHP and .cfm is to ColdFusion.

Right, but it isn't an ASPX page. It just has a couple links to ASPX pages on another site/domain.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#90

Post by acangiano » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 3:08 PM UTC

xenopia wrote: post #76

acangiano wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but you can check Exibit A at the end of the document embedded in this blog post: http://avramc.posterous.com/united-directories-federal-court... Facts: - They clearly state that it's not a bill/invoice. - The fine print explains that there is no obligation to subscribe. - The fine print explains that they are not affiliated with the actual Yellow Pages. - The fine print font is larger than your typical bank s…

This kind of deceptive business is quite common, and they usually get away with it. It would be naive to think that the Feds have the resources to go after every company that engages in deceptive marketing. There is something more here. They have taken the trouble to get access to bank accounts, this is no minor step. I think they saw enough in those accounts to warrant going after this. While there may well have bee…

My analysis was in fact limited to the legality of the solicitation. I'm in no way qualified to figure out the legality of their operations in general.