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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#81

Post by blazespin »

numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Yah, I was particularly amused by Zuck when he gave a speech at his ol' stomping grounds suggesting everyone should focus on public works rather than companies competing with facebook. Very thematic, you have to give him credit.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#82

Post by blazespin »

rdtsc wrote: post #28
numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

> They’ve built their entire business on the back of open source software that wasn’t ever encumbered with the sort of nonsense they’ve attached to their own projects. So did Amazon apparently and others. At least Google have open sourced many interesting and useful projects so they have given back. Microsoft have been open sourcing things lately too. Others so so.

The problem is that a critical protection against large companies is via patents or at least the threat of. Without them, the ability to dethrone them becomes very limited.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#84

Post by neilparikh »

ori_b wrote: post #62
cma wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS Now where does it say that? The way I read it, so long as you don't sue Facebook, you have a patent grant. If you believe people when they say that their patent portfolios are purely defensive, there is no problem. On the other hand, being the aggressor in a patent lawsuit loses you the patent grant. This seems sane enough to me. The normal state of affairs is com…

Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)?

The clause also doesn't explicitly cover software patents only, so if Facebook infringes on your hardware patents (which is plausible, since Facebook does hardware related work as well), you still can't sue them.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#85

Post by neilparikh »

cma wrote: post #35
numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

Actually, it seems even worse, because you give Facebook permission to use all patents, both software and non-software.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#86

Post by [deleted] »

khuey wrote: post #68
carussell wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents throughout your whole company. That is, on its face, absolutely untrue. Nowhere in the React patent terms does it specify that you grant Facebook rights to use your patents--not even to ones related to React. That's something that isn't in the React terms, nor does it seem to show up in any legal analyses published on…

It maybe "on its face absolutely untrue" but it is true in practice. If Facebook infringes your patent and you sue them to enforce you lose the rights to use any patents React requires. So while you're not required to grant Facebook rights to use your patents, you are required not to enforce your rights relating to your patents against Facebook.

[deleted]

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#87

Post by rosser »

carussell wrote: post #53
cma wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

> As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents throughout your whole company. That is, on its face, absolutely untrue. Nowhere in the React patent terms does it specify that you grant Facebook rights to use your patents--not even to ones related to React. That's something that isn't in the React terms, nor does it seem to show up in any legal analyses published on…

It's a de facto one-way "all your patents are available to us" grant, because you can't sue them if they violate any patents you may have, without ceding your l̶i̶c̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ability to use React.

EDIT: better?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#88

Post by ouid »

If your landlord does something that they would normally be within their rights to do in retaliation to you enforcing some other provision in your agreement, then it is illegal. I'd bet that this was not the kind of statute that they could override in a lease agreement.

I wonder if such a clause is actually enforceable. Are there any actual cases where this clause was invoked?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#89

Post by ori_b »

neilparikh wrote: post #84
ori_b wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS Now where does it say that? The way I read it, so long as you don't sue Facebook, you have a patent grant. If you believe people when they say that their patent portfolios are purely defensive, there is no problem. On the other hand, being the aggressor in a patent lawsuit loses you the patent grant. This seems sane enough to me. The normal state of affairs is com…

Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)? The clause also doesn't explicitly cover software patents only, so if Facebook infringes on your hardware patents (which is plausible, since Facebook does hardware related work as well), you still can't sue them.

> Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)?

Why should Facebook support companies that are suing them?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#90

Post by Lazare »

rosser wrote: post #87
carussell wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents throughout your whole company. That is, on its face, absolutely untrue. Nowhere in the React patent terms does it specify that you grant Facebook rights to use your patents--not even to ones related to React. That's something that isn't in the React terms, nor does it seem to show up in any legal analyses published on…

It's a de facto one-way "all your patents are available to us" grant, because you can't sue them if they violate any patents you may have, without ceding your l̶i̶c̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ability to use React. EDIT: better?

> without ceding your license to use React.

Ceding your license to use any patents Facebook may or may not have on React. There's a difference.

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