Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think attempting to use Swift on a Linux server would be a big nuisance I beg to differ. Look at Vapor, Kitura & Perfect. I know Foundation is missing implementations for Linux, but it is not something that makes it a big nuisance IMO. You can quickly have a setup with Swift on Linux running a simle CRUD app.
Yes it is possible and IBM is the one pushing for it. However it is still light years behind JEE and Spring features, including parity with existing JDBC drivers. Also besides instruments on OS X, there are no comparable performance monitoring tools like VisualVM, Mission Control and many others from the JDK vendors.
Chris Lattner on the Realm WWDC 2017 Swift Panel
81–90 of 120 posts
Re: Chris Lattner on the Realm WWDC 2017 Swift Panel
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ignoring all the abstractions and concepts (made possible by underlying simplicity), Haskell is absolutely a simpler language than C++ or Java with Generics. EDIT: my point was that subtyping is controversial, I assume the downvotes are for my own personal position.
Many people who've tried to get into it, and whose horror stories we read on HN frequently, would argue otherwise.
Where I work we do have some business people successfully writing Haskell.
I've worked on very large codebases in many large organisations with C++, Java and Haskell. Haskell certainly wasn't the horror story.
Re: Chris Lattner on the Realm WWDC 2017 Swift Panel
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ignoring all the abstractions and concepts (made possible by underlying simplicity), Haskell is absolutely a simpler language than C++ or Java with Generics. EDIT: my point was that subtyping is controversial, I assume the downvotes are for my own personal position.
Many people who've tried to get into it, and whose horror stories we read on HN frequently, would argue otherwise.
Re: Chris Lattner on the Realm WWDC 2017 Swift Panel
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
For that to happen Swift needs to be usable at Java level in all OSes where JVM/JDKs (some of them with AOT support since the early days of Java) do exist. I am still waiting for first class support on Windows on the download page. Right now Rust has much better OS support than Swift.
> For that to happen Swift needs to be usable at Java level in all OSes where JVM/JDKs (some of them with AOT support since the early days of Java) do exist. No, you seem to confuse "replace Java" with "TOTALLY AND ABSOLUTELY replace Java everywhere". Swift just needs to be usable on the platforms that matter -- and since it's by default on OS X, that leaves Windows and Linux. Nobody cares if it runs on some mainfram…
Also as of 2017 Swift is still quite unusable on Linux beyond a few demo apps and on Windows nowhere to be seen.
Additionally GNU/Linux, BSD and Windows are better served by Rust, SML, OCaml, Haskell and F# than Swift.
In all aspects that matter, they have better compilers to chose from, IDE support, libraries and tooling.
The positive aspect of Swift is being a modern multi-paradigm language being pushed by a company like Apple, which will hopefully improve the adoption of such languages.
However outside Apple's own operating systems, Swift has a very long road to travel before it gets any kind of meaningful adoption, let alone being a threat to programming languages on GNU/Linux, BSD and Windows.
Re: Chris Lattner on the Realm WWDC 2017 Swift Panel
#85BTW: Before we get too deep in specific language criticisms, let's not forget that Chris Lattner is awesome. The fact that two super smart guys with huge work ethics like Chris and Elon Musk couldn't get along is very disappointing to me.
Re: Chris Lattner on the Realm WWDC 2017 Swift Panel
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For that to happen Swift needs to be usable at Java level in all OSes where JVM/JDKs (some of them with AOT support since the early days of Java) do exist. No, you seem to confuse "replace Java" with "TOTALLY AND ABSOLUTELY replace Java everywhere". Swift just needs to be usable on the platforms that matter -- and since it's by default on OS X, that leaves Windows and Linux. Nobody cares if it runs on some mainfram…
Apparently you have forgotten about Android, smart cards, blue ray players, embedded devices controlling your electric and heating bill, car infotainment systems, IoT gateways, Cisco phones, Ricoh and Xerox laser printers, .... Also as of 2017 Swift is still quite unusable on Linux beyond a few demo apps and on Windows nowhere to be seen. Additionally GNU/Linux, BSD and Windows are better served by Rust, SML, OCaml,…
I haven't forgotten them, but apart from Android, I simply don't care for them as domains where Swift should dominate to call it a Java replacement. Nobody cares what runs in a set top box or smart card reader, and blue ray players wont be a thing very soon (if they ever were).
Heck, even Android is moving to Kotlin (and it's Davlik no JVM, so it's twice removed from Java now) and don't they also do a new framework for Android programming with Dart? And Fucsia, when that comes out, I don't see it featuring Java either.
I don't think Lattner had those things in mind when he mentioned competing with Java either. Nor did he had in mind some future in which Java has 0% market share and Swift has all of Java's share in every domain. (Plus, he mentioned the server side and service development as targets Swift is interested in specifically).
>Additionally GNU/Linux, BSD and Windows are better served by Rust, SML, OCaml, Haskell and F# than Swift
That would be relevant if somebody had said that Swift is to replace them today. But what was said was an intention. Not a description of the current situation.
(And let's be real: I don't think Ocaml, SML and Haskell will ever go that far at the stakes Swift is interested in. They are excellent languages but either too esoteric, or with too small communities that don't show much signs of getting any bigger. Languages with corporate backers, on the other hand, usually fair much better -- so Rust still plays, even if Mozilla is not a major player, because it also chose a much needed niche).
Re: Chris Lattner on the Realm WWDC 2017 Swift Panel
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many people who've tried to get into it, and whose horror stories we read on HN frequently, would argue otherwise.
Who are these people, were they professional programmers? How hard were they trying? Perhaps they just wanted a better Java? Where I work we do have some business people successfully writing Haskell. I've worked on very large codebases in many large organisations with C++, Java and Haskell. Haskell certainly wasn't the horror story.
How hard should they have tried? Should they have burnt the midnight oil?
This Java you talk about, is still in the top 1-3 languages by programmers, is it not?
And supposedly Haskell is easier (according to the parent comment) but at the same time needs people to try harder to get it than Java? It can't be both...
>I've worked on very large codebases in many large organisations with C++, Java and Haskell. Haskell certainly wasn't the horror story.
No, but it was the new novelty on greenfield staff. Easy to start as better. Java wasn't the horror story in 2000 either.
Re: Chris Lattner on the Realm WWDC 2017 Swift Panel
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many people who've tried to get into it, and whose horror stories we read on HN frequently, would argue otherwise.
ML languages are simpler, but require paradigm shift.
"It's simple once you've changed how you think about stuff" just hides the complexity in a prerequisite.
Re: Chris Lattner on the Realm WWDC 2017 Swift Panel
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apparently you have forgotten about Android, smart cards, blue ray players, embedded devices controlling your electric and heating bill, car infotainment systems, IoT gateways, Cisco phones, Ricoh and Xerox laser printers, .... Also as of 2017 Swift is still quite unusable on Linux beyond a few demo apps and on Windows nowhere to be seen. Additionally GNU/Linux, BSD and Windows are better served by Rust, SML, OCaml,…
> Apparently you have forgotten about Android, smart cards, blue ray players, embedded devices controlling your electric and heating bill, car infotainment systems, IoT gateways, Cisco phones, Ricoh and Xerox laser printers, .... I haven't forgotten them, but apart from Android, I simply don't care for them as domains where Swift should dominate to call it a Java replacement. Nobody cares what runs in a set top box o…
Apparently forgetting again that without Java and the JVM there isn't Android studio and 100% of all major Android libraries are written in Java.
Java will never go away from Android, just like C will never go away from any UNIX-like OS.
Praising Kotlin while bashing Java, is like thinking any UNIX derived OS will ever use anything other than C for its system level programming, or that JavaScript will ever stop being the king of the browser in spite of WebAssembly.
The framework you mention is Flutter and the Android team doesn't have anything to do with it. It is being developed by the Dart team while searching for whatever might become the language's killer feature to be adopted outside AdWords team and Google walls.
Java might eventually lose to other programming languages, hence the active work regarding improvements on AOT compilation, value types and GPGPU programming.
But the language taking Java's place surely won't be Swift.
Re: Chris Lattner on the Realm WWDC 2017 Swift Panel
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apparently you have forgotten about Android, smart cards, blue ray players, embedded devices controlling your electric and heating bill, car infotainment systems, IoT gateways, Cisco phones, Ricoh and Xerox laser printers, .... Also as of 2017 Swift is still quite unusable on Linux beyond a few demo apps and on Windows nowhere to be seen. Additionally GNU/Linux, BSD and Windows are better served by Rust, SML, OCaml,…
> Apparently you have forgotten about Android, smart cards, blue ray players, embedded devices controlling your electric and heating bill, car infotainment systems, IoT gateways, Cisco phones, Ricoh and Xerox laser printers, .... I haven't forgotten them, but apart from Android, I simply don't care for them as domains where Swift should dominate to call it a Java replacement. Nobody cares what runs in a set top box o…