A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news • Hacker News Board

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#81

Post by Aron » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

Joe-Z wrote: post #62

lend000 wrote: post #42

The problem I have with the minimum wage is that it transfers wealth from the very poorest to the mid-working class/lower middle class. Who am I to tell a homeless person that she is legally forbidden to engage in a voluntary, hourly employment contract for less than $15/hr? I would effectively be guaranteeing that she stays unemployed/homeless. Regardless of practical effects (which are ambiguous at best), it's wron…

>Who am I to tell a homeless person that she is legally forbidden to engage in a voluntary, hourly employment contract for less than $15/hr? Someone who hasn't unterstood minimun wage fully? Minimum wage covers exactly this situation: You will have to pay at least that amount, even if the person you're employing happens to be homeless at the moment. If an employer is not willing to pay that, than that's not an issue…

If someone says 'my labor isn't worth 15$ and I know you won't hire me at that rate so I want to work for 10$' they are legally forbidden from this, right?

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#82

Post by clavalle » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #42

The problem I have with the minimum wage is that it transfers wealth from the very poorest to the mid-working class/lower middle class. Who am I to tell a homeless person that she is legally forbidden to engage in a voluntary, hourly employment contract for less than $15/hr? I would effectively be guaranteeing that she stays unemployed/homeless. Regardless of practical effects (which are ambiguous at best), it's wron…

When a person is desperate, 'voluntary' starts to lose all meaning.

If you are dead broke and half starved and I offered you a take it or leave it offer to work carrying rocks for $2 an hour so you can get a sandwich and you agree, is that really voluntary?

I do agree with you about teenagers and other people that don't need the money in order to live. For dependents and people that agree not to get public assistance (e.g. retirees), I don't think there should be any minimum wage at all.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#83

Post by coldpie » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #42

The problem I have with the minimum wage is that it transfers wealth from the very poorest to the mid-working class/lower middle class. Who am I to tell a homeless person that she is legally forbidden to engage in a voluntary, hourly employment contract for less than $15/hr? I would effectively be guaranteeing that she stays unemployed/homeless. Regardless of practical effects (which are ambiguous at best), it's wron…

> On the other hand, the minimum wage definitely benefits middle class teenagers on their first jobs (if they can get a job), and has questionable benefit for millennial humanities college grads who have yet to start a career.

This is the problem. Everyone working 40 hours per week deserves a living wage, whether they're fresh out of high school or 8 years into a humanities degree. There's this weird sense out there that working in food service isn't a "real job," or as you say they haven't started their "career." This is how you end up with people working 60 or 80 hour work weeks, or two or three jobs, to provide for themselves and their family. Every 40 hour job is a "real job" and deserves a living wage. Otherwise you're just making people depend on our social safety net, and no one wants that.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#84

Post by koolba » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

taeric wrote: post #58

lend000 wrote: post #42

The problem I have with the minimum wage is that it transfers wealth from the very poorest to the mid-working class/lower middle class. Who am I to tell a homeless person that she is legally forbidden to engage in a voluntary, hourly employment contract for less than $15/hr? I would effectively be guaranteeing that she stays unemployed/homeless. Regardless of practical effects (which are ambiguous at best), it's wron…

You aren't telling the homeless person that they are legally forbidden from working in cheap labor. You are telling businesses that they are not solvent if they rely on ultra cheap labor.

If nobody is allowed to offer him work below a particular rate and nobody is willing to pay him at or above that rate, then he's effectively forbidden from working.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#85

Post by surfmike » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

startupdiscuss wrote: post #17

"In particular, to avoid confusing establishments that were subject to the minimum with those that were not, the authors did not include large employers with locations both inside and outside of Seattle in their calculations. Skeptics argued that omission could explain the unusual results."

Quote from study: "as shown in Table 2, in Washington State as a whole, single-site businesses comprise 89% of firms and employ 62% of the entire workforce (which includes 2.7 million employees in an average quarter)" [2].

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#86

Post by tim333 » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

Joe-Z wrote: post #62

lend000 wrote: post #42

The problem I have with the minimum wage is that it transfers wealth from the very poorest to the mid-working class/lower middle class. Who am I to tell a homeless person that she is legally forbidden to engage in a voluntary, hourly employment contract for less than $15/hr? I would effectively be guaranteeing that she stays unemployed/homeless. Regardless of practical effects (which are ambiguous at best), it's wron…

>Who am I to tell a homeless person that she is legally forbidden to engage in a voluntary, hourly employment contract for less than $15/hr? Someone who hasn't unterstood minimun wage fully? Minimum wage covers exactly this situation: You will have to pay at least that amount, even if the person you're employing happens to be homeless at the moment. If an employer is not willing to pay that, than that's not an issue…

The trouble is for $15 per hour the business can probably hire someone more productive or less hassle than the homeless guy. Thus the homeless guy stays unemployed.

I was always a put off minimum wage laws by reading Thomas Sowell on how blacks had lower unemployment than whites in 1948 before minimum wage laws had much effect. After people hired non blacks and the unemployment rate shot up giving problems that continue to this day. ( eg http://www.twincities.com/2012/02/07/thomas-sowell-the-minim...)

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#87

Post by jeffdavis » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #43

I really dislike this framing. By any contemporary definition I'm a "liberal": * I support higher taxes, particularly on higher income people, almost for its own sake. * I oppose almost all military intervention abroad. * I believe the federal government needs to intervene with local governments to prevent police abuses. * I strongly support public schools and oppose public-funded charters. ... and I could go on and…

For reasons not clear to me, the following statement is political suicide: "We tried something we believed would help low-income workers based on the best information we had at the time. The results have not met our expectations, so we will reassess whether it's a net benefit in our unique city or if we should suspend it and look at other proposals to help low-income workers instead."

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#88

Post by lordCarbonFiber » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #42

The problem I have with the minimum wage is that it transfers wealth from the very poorest to the mid-working class/lower middle class. Who am I to tell a homeless person that she is legally forbidden to engage in a voluntary, hourly employment contract for less than $15/hr? I would effectively be guaranteeing that she stays unemployed/homeless. Regardless of practical effects (which are ambiguous at best), it's wron…

The crux of the issue is at the end of the day, the true "market value" of most 0 or near 0 skill jobs is close to 0$. This is especially true in the case of your hypothetical homeless person for whom any employment represents a significant percentage marginal increase in income (hard not to beat 0). Given the power asymmetry between "people offering low skill jobs" and "people forced into taking low skill jobs" minimum wage is morally superior than forced feudalism.

Now, the US (and most governments) miss out on the other side of the in that, we want to force people out of low skill effectively worthless jobs, and into higher skill positions that drive the economy. That means reeducation programs, community involvement, and a social safety net which all costs tax money.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#89

Post by thehardsphere » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

accountyaccount wrote: post #20

Probably an unpopular opinion, but: Isn't raising the minimum essentially trying to save a sinking ship by adding more water to the ocean? Seems like time would be better spent ensuring that everyone has food, housing, and healthcare no matter what they do (easier said than done, of course).

It's more like trying to save a sinking ship by telling the crew on the ship they can only use high-quality licensed ship repair equipment, instead patching the holes with whatever they can improvise.

Yes, it would be better if they used high quality hull repair equipment, but sometimes it's not available and insisting that's the only thing you're allowed to use while the ship is sinking and people are struggling to survive is not helpful at all.

Re: A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news

#90

Post by ancap » Mon, Jun 26, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

Joe-Z wrote: post #62

lend000 wrote: post #42

The problem I have with the minimum wage is that it transfers wealth from the very poorest to the mid-working class/lower middle class. Who am I to tell a homeless person that she is legally forbidden to engage in a voluntary, hourly employment contract for less than $15/hr? I would effectively be guaranteeing that she stays unemployed/homeless. Regardless of practical effects (which are ambiguous at best), it's wron…

>Who am I to tell a homeless person that she is legally forbidden to engage in a voluntary, hourly employment contract for less than $15/hr? Someone who hasn't unterstood minimun wage fully? Minimum wage covers exactly this situation: You will have to pay at least that amount, even if the person you're employing happens to be homeless at the moment. If an employer is not willing to pay that, than that's not an issue…

It absolutely is a problem with the minimum wage. Chances are a homeless person's marginal productivity is less than $15/hour. Why would an employer hire someone that's going to be a net loss on their bottom line?

Sadly this is not just a consequence for the homeless but it impacts all those who are low skilled, which is disproportionally the young and minorities.