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DevOps is a culture, not a role

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Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#81

Post by corobo »

ende wrote: post #77
corobo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code Wait have I been using the wrong definition? I thought DevOps were devs that also setup/maintain their own infrastructure

Yeah, please stop using that definition immediately. It's incredibly unhelpful, and just encourages management to understaff.

To be fair it does look like that's what it's supposed to mean. It looks like a combination of Dev and Ops, at a glance it should mean it describes a combination of roles too.

I tut at management as much as the next guy but whoever came up with DevOps didn't really help themselves there :)

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#82

Post by matt_wulfeck »

Here's a thought: skilled devops engineers are indistinguishable from skilled software engineers, and vice versa.

Who can be specialized anymore? Isn't devops just the compression of skill sets that we've been witnessing for the last two decades?

As a developer, you now must be able to deploy, to write and maintain unit tests, and possess the knowledge to debug code deep on the system and network layer, and write code that follows up-to-date security practices.

Specialization is dying.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#83

Post by cat199 »

preordained wrote: post #73
nraynaud wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate specialization, and I want the person who develop something to think about how that stuff will be deployed and kept online. In particular, some tradeoffs have to be made between the development side and the production side, and I want the same person to see both side and decide with a technical criterion (or just choose one option, and later reverse course and change it), not on a "it's not my problem" criteri…

There is too much. It's specialization out of necessity. I know enough "DevOps" to be dangerous, but in addition to having a deep knowledge of our product's codebase, the multiple features of our product, configurations, etc. there are not enough hours in the day to master (not simply be familiar with) Jenkins pipeline, Docker, AWS, Ansible, Zookeeper, etc, etc. 99% of the people who could claim to have knowledge of…

it is definitely possible to have fairly deep level of knowledge at all layers it just takes effort.

That said, the larger the project, the more the need for specialization and the less possible it is for someone to keep up with all changes and be a domain expert.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#84

Post by matwood »

dpeck wrote: post #45

Related, I've found that the term devops is too poisoned to be used effectively when hiring. It brings out charlatans in far greater numbers than anything else at the moment. Garden variety technician level folks who self inflate their titles and roles to try to jump from 60k to 100k overnight. It's been frustrating as they're able to get things syntactically correct for the most part that they get through early phon…

Devops is less about knowing the syntax of something like Terraform and more about understanding, communicating, and implementing 'devops' best practices across an organization. The early phone screen should be an easy place to weed out people.

I do agree that devops is the hot new title so people are jumping on it to try and make more money.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#86

Post by dkarapetyan »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #82

Here's a thought: skilled devops engineers are indistinguishable from skilled software engineers, and vice versa. Who can be specialized anymore? Isn't devops just the compression of skill sets that we've been witnessing for the last two decades? As a developer, you now must be able to deploy, to write and maintain unit tests, and possess the knowledge to debug code deep on the system and network layer, and write cod…

Data scientists would disagree. Specialization is alive and well.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#87

Post by dimitar »

skywhopper wrote: post #58

First, let me say I totally agree with the premise here--that all parts of a software engineering organization need to be on board with DevOps, buying in to the vision, learning the full stack, taking responsibility. However, this article does serve as a good example of one of the big problems with most DevOps/SRE evangelism: It's usually coming from the Dev- perspective, rather than the -Ops perspective (or better,…

My experience is that even customers who are very enthusiastic about these new processes and methodologies quickly turn back to the old-school way of doing things once someone in upper management raises these bullets. And they weren't considered before because the customer Ops people were not invited to any discussions.

So in order to truly get the whole organization on board you do need to include your solutions to the above points in your evangelism.. and start really early.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#88

Post by cat199 »

Randgalt wrote: post #30
notamy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative third definition: Make the devs also be the ops guys

I'm good at writing code, developing libraries, architecture, etc. I'm not very good at operations - mostly because I don't enjoy it and haven't spent much time applying it. Not everyone is the pitcher, the catcher, the first baseman, etc. We specialize because that's how humans work best together. Everyone should not need to know how to do everything. Developers must work with operations - of course. The way and the…

> Not everyone is the pitcher, the catcher, the first baseman, etc.

In soccer, this argument holds less weight. I prefer soccer.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#89

Post by cat199 »

holydude wrote: post #17
dozzie wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you don't, but those nuances and specifics are usually superficial and don't change how you approach your environment. You think there is that much of a difference between running Puppet, CFEngine, or Chef?

They are not superficial and they definitely change how you approach your environment. I have worked extensively with both CFEngine and Puppet and I can assure you that they have enough differences especially when you consider large heterogenous environments that in no way you can consider using one as a substitute for the other.

Yes, but this also doesn't mean that one person trained in one tool can't learn the other in fairly short order, provided they understand the core principles behind it and haven't been 'brainwashed' into thinking 'this is how things work'

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#90

Post by Nadya »

cat199 wrote: post #88
Randgalt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm good at writing code, developing libraries, architecture, etc. I'm not very good at operations - mostly because I don't enjoy it and haven't spent much time applying it. Not everyone is the pitcher, the catcher, the first baseman, etc. We specialize because that's how humans work best together. Everyone should not need to know how to do everything. Developers must work with operations - of course. The way and the…

> Not everyone is the pitcher, the catcher, the first baseman, etc. In soccer, this argument holds less weight. I prefer soccer.

Okay, so not everyone is a sweeper, fullback, goalie, wingback, midfielder, striker, or forward.
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