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History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

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Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#81

Post by flukus »

ScottBurson wrote: post #55
tetraodonpuffer wrote: post #36

what is the difference between "backspace" and "rubout"? the emacs keyboard had both it seems, but wouldn't they be doing the same operation?

On an ASR33 Teletype, backspace simply moved the carriage one character position to the left. Rubout was a different concept entirely. The ASR33 had a paper tape punch and reader. The Rubout character was 0x7F, i.e., it had all bits set. So, to "rub out" an erroneous character from the paper tape, you could back the tape up in the punch to the desired character (by pressing a button on the punch; there was no charact…

> On an ASR33 Teletype, backspace simply moved the carriage one character position to the left.

Exactly what a typewriter would do because it couldn't erase the ink on the paper.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#82

Post by lispm »

DonHopkins wrote: post #59
submeta wrote: post #21

Interesting to see the Symbolics keyboard. As an Emacs user I had reprogrammed my ThinkPad keyboard (Windows) so that Alt -> Control Windows-key and Menu Key -> Alt Control keys -> Windows key So without having ever seen a Symbolics keyboard and without knowing the history behind emacs keyboard layout I remapped my keyboard so that I had very quick access to Control and Alt (= Meta) keys. On my Macbook it's not that…

The most important thing that distinguished the Lisp Machine keyboard was that it had dedicated parenthesis keys. According to my sources, that was so you could hold a Hefty bag of nitrous oxide in one hand, and type s-expressions with the other. (Gumby can you verify this? ;) )

I have a new style Symbolics keyboard. This one has a very sharp front and a heavy metal body. From time to time it serves well in a guillotine, executing obnoxious unix weenies with a Lispm keyboard.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#83

Post by klibertp »

submeta wrote: post #47
klibertp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used "Keyboard Maestro" for this. I tried out some other tools, but they mostly didn't work or were too bothersome to configure. It's definitely worth the cost, as it made a Mac usable to me, although my keymap is quite different from yours, which is kind of a point with this kind of software :) I was using Linux and StumpWM (a Common Lisp/Emacs-based WM, and Enlightenment before that) for a couple of years, so I t…

There is Karabiner for Mac. It let's you remap every key of your Mac. For instance I remapped the enter key to behave like a Control key if I use it in combination with another key. Otherwise (if I just hit enter it behaves like the enter key)

Karabiner is a disaster.

From the configuration file format, which is XML but not really, to the fact it doesn't work for Sierra and it won't work for Sierra because the author(s) decided to rewrite the whole app and stopped updating the original one, to the GUI straight out of the 90's... I can't find any other word for describing it. Disaster fits.

Keyboard Maestro is a paid app. It's reasonably cheap, but as a long time Linux user, I was shocked I need to pay at all for something I'd consider an essential part of the OS. But you can try KM for free for some time and decide if it's worth its price. Personally, I'm very happy with it. Its UI could be a bit better, but its functional and lets you easily add and organize your own mappings. Karabiner, on the other hand, is a giant blob of pre-defined mappings you can disable or enable (and adding your own is a pain).

The rewrite of Karabiner promises some of the features of Keyboard Maestro, but it's still underway.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#84

Post by klibertp »

geoelectric wrote: post #54
klibertp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used "Keyboard Maestro" for this. I tried out some other tools, but they mostly didn't work or were too bothersome to configure. It's definitely worth the cost, as it made a Mac usable to me, although my keymap is quite different from yours, which is kind of a point with this kind of software :) I was using Linux and StumpWM (a Common Lisp/Emacs-based WM, and Enlightenment before that) for a couple of years, so I t…

Worth noting that Mac lets you remap the control, alt, and cmd keys to one another. It's been hidden in the keyboard settings under a "Modifier Keys..." button for a major version or three now, and is stored per keyboard (nice for mechanicals with a keycap swap). The new MBPs (possibly anything on Sierra?) add CapsLock as a mapping target and both CapsLock and Esc as a mapped value, presumably to get around only havi…

> Worth noting that Mac lets you remap the control, alt, and cmd keys to one another.

Yeah, but that's all it allows you to do. In other words, if you exchange Ctrl and Cmd so that "normal" Ctrl+c/Ctrl+v works you need to press Ctrl+space for Spotlight. I don't want that. I want to leave Ctrl where it is, and only make Ctrl+c/Ctrl+v (as an example) behave as expected.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#85

Post by submeta »

rerx wrote: post #48
submeta wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is Karabiner for Mac. It let's you remap every key of your Mac. For instance I remapped the enter key to behave like a Control key if I use it in combination with another key. Otherwise (if I just hit enter it behaves like the enter key)

It does not work on Sierra yet.

I know and I haven't updated to Sierra just because of that. If I knew that Keyboard Maestro gives me all of the features of it I'd even pay fifty dollars to get it.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#87

Post by sctb »

atemerev wrote: post #57
sctb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need name-calling flamebait TL;DRs on Hacker News, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I genuinely consider falling into established patterns and modes of interaction (i.e. a cargo cult approach) to be a serious problem for software engineers, including myself. And I think that vi and emacs keybindings are a great point illustrating this problem. But you are the boss, boss. Won't happen again.

Then please make your point without violating the guidelines. It's not trivial, especially when we feel strongly, but it's not hard.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#88

Post by thomastjeffery »

alexeiz wrote: post #86
thomastjeffery wrote: post #70

Vi is a poor implementation of a great idea. I would really like a modal editor in which I could configure the behavior for each key, maybe even define more modes and composable functions.

I smell an Emacs user!

Emacs has the same problem. The best editor for Emacs is the vim emulation evil-mode.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#89

Post by thomastjeffery »

stewbrew wrote: post #79
thomastjeffery wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than map over already-defined keys, it would be nice to have a clean slate to work from.

So, you want an editor that doesn't do anything when you press a key? I'm not sure if such an app would have many users. :-)

You would define the behavior yourself, or (more likely) load a set of defined behavior.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#90

Post by thomastjeffery »

flukus wrote: post #80
thomastjeffery wrote: post #70

Vi is a poor implementation of a great idea. I would really like a modal editor in which I could configure the behavior for each key, maybe even define more modes and composable functions.

Emacs? It has a gajillion modes.

Yes, but they all have the same keybindings. I'm really not a fan of C-x everything, or C-[npfb] (especially since b is hard to reach), etc.

In Emacs, it's really hard to create completely different keybindings, because as soon as you enter a new mode, it defines the same original keybindings for new behavior.

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