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What does $100 Ether mean?

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Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#81
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is simply incorrect. The gas limits do make smart contracts decidable. It is a mathematical fact. Bringing the idea that things have gone wrong with Ethereum as proof to the contrary is completely absurd. Things have also gone wrong with Bitcoin [1]. Is it undecidable now too? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox

Indeed. All you have to do is test every possible input, in much the same way that any computation on a real computer is technically decidable because the limited amount of RAM means that it can only have a finite number of states. Neither of those limits actually makes solving the problem feasible in practice.

>Neither of those limits actually makes solving the problem feasible in practice.

That's the point. Theoretical limitations has no bearing on solving the practical problem. That is why RichardHeart's original point [1] is wrong.

[1] The halting problem states you can't predict what a turing complete program will do, until you run it. This means to some degree, that you can't predict what your "smart" contract will do, until it does it. Thus turing completeness causes security to be far, far harder than non turing completeness. This is how you lose the millions of dollars as the DAO did after it passed audits.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I knew about Bitcoin when it was $20. You could buy now and dump it when it hits $900 - $1000. It will. As far as I am concerned, the current iteration of *coin are just pump and dump basically.

What do you think about the idea that people in failed states with unstable currencies would want to store their wealth in Bitcoin? Or the idea that people would want to use it for international money transfers? "Just pump and dump" implies you don't believe legitimate uses underlie the coin.

> What do you think about the idea that people in failed states with unstable currencies would want to store their wealth in Bitcoin?

It's a stupid idea because there's always two parties to any transaction.

You know why they don't just store their wealth in dollars? Because nobody is insane enough to sell them dollars for a worthless piece of paper.

Bitcoin works the same way. How much Bitcoin would you give for a Zimbabwe Dollar during hyperinflation? Obviously none.

So you have yet another hard currency that nobody can get ahold of. What's the point, again?

> Or the idea that people would want to use it for international money transfers?

I buy things internationally all the time. It works pretty great, it costs me nothing and it costs the recipient 4.4% plus a fixed $0.30 per sale.

Plus if they try and screw me over somehow I get all my money back and try someone else, and they get slapped with a big-ass chargeback fee for being an asshole. How much are the chargeback fees in the Bitcoin model? Who do I call to get my money back?

Also, I can tell you for sure that Bitcoin costs quite a lot in fees to buy, sell, or trade. Each transaction is what, $0.50 in fees nowadays?

Insofar as Bitcoin represents a single world currency, the problem is that on a macro level this isn't a good idea. Separate currencies that can inflate/deflate (i.e. "appreciate" and "depreciate") are a way to levellize structural imbalances, and without this relief valve you can end up with total collapse instead of just workers who are upset that an iPhone costs $1000. Inflation is good, it reflects a growing economy, it's only when it turns into hyperinflation that this is problematic.

For a microcosm of this problem, you can see the ongoing problems with the structural imbalances between Greece and the high-earning German economies over the last 10 years. If they had currencies that could appreciate and depreciate, Greek labor would be very cheap on the international market. But since they're stuck in the Euro together, they can't do that.

The growth function for the money supply probably isn't optimal either, for these reasons. The ability to adjust the supply is critical for controlling both inflation and deflation, under various circumstances.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#83
post #74

If you're wondering why there is so much negativity toward Ethereum on Hacker News, the answer is likely to be 1 of 7 things. The individual making the remark is 1) brainwashed by the Bitcoin or Altcoin propaganda machine, 2) trying to prop up their personal crypto portfolio, 3) a shill and/or troll paid to astroturf social media, 4) bitter or jealous for not getting in at the beginning, 5) afraid of Ethereum and wha…

What has been the most useful application of ETH for you?

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#84
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I didn't qualify "always feasible" well enough. What I meant was, I want it to be feasible to reason about the halting states of every single smart-contract that will ever interact with my code. Not just the ones that I write, but also the ones that are reachable from my smart contract's call graph, and the ones that call into my smart contract. If I can do this, then I can feasibly reason about how my code wi…

I don't think I follow - why would you need to reason about your callers' internal states in order to prove properties about your own contract?

Because in practice, I'm trying to reason about the consequences of submitting a given transaction. A transaction can invoke many smart contracts in addition to mine. It's not enough for my code to be correct; every piece of code the transaction causes to run has to be correct as well.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#85
post #78
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While others have pointed out that this is wrong, it's worth amplifying: Turing machines are deterministic. You can run the contract locally and observe how it behaves, and it will behave the same way in the same environment elsewhere. If this wasn't the case, you couldn't have consensus at all. "Deterministic" != "feasible to reason about halting states for all inputs." Running it locally to see how it behaves for…

Formal analysis will help sort this out. Larry Paulson trained up these guys: https://www.imandra.ai/ And similar tech can be applied to smart contracts. Would have spotted the DAO bug. Not ready for prime time yet, but will be around the same time as sharding maybe...

That's much easier said than done. If formal methods were practical, we'd be using them already everywhere else.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#86
post #74

If you're wondering why there is so much negativity toward Ethereum on Hacker News, the answer is likely to be 1 of 7 things. The individual making the remark is 1) brainwashed by the Bitcoin or Altcoin propaganda machine, 2) trying to prop up their personal crypto portfolio, 3) a shill and/or troll paid to astroturf social media, 4) bitter or jealous for not getting in at the beginning, 5) afraid of Ethereum and wha…

What has been the most useful application of ETH for you?

[deleted]

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#87
post #74

If you're wondering why there is so much negativity toward Ethereum on Hacker News, the answer is likely to be 1 of 7 things. The individual making the remark is 1) brainwashed by the Bitcoin or Altcoin propaganda machine, 2) trying to prop up their personal crypto portfolio, 3) a shill and/or troll paid to astroturf social media, 4) bitter or jealous for not getting in at the beginning, 5) afraid of Ethereum and wha…

[deleted]

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think I'm missing about ETH? Insufficient political radicalism?

Disclaiming the misunderstood "marketcaps:" Crypto currency market cap descriptions are comedic. As soon as you actually try and sell your coins into the market, you see that you've eaten through the order book and driven the whole market down 10 percent. With thin markets like cryptocurrencies, if you market sell a million of coins, you actually make quite a large dent in the order book. Thus, a disclaimer should be…

>As soon as you actually try and sell your coins into the market, you see that you've eaten through the order book and driven the whole market down 10 percent. With

There is no way you could push down the market 10 percent today. Maybe back in 2011, or maybe in one of the lesser known cryptocurrency markets. But in Ethereum, you could unload a huge number of ETH and the price wouldn't budge. I'm assuming of course you're not an institutional trader, in which case of course Ethereum trading volumes are insufficient to absorb large trades without significant price movements.

>Smart contracts are seriously entirely useless unless you solve oracles.

Even a basic cryptocurrency transaction (sending ETH from Account 1 to Account 2) utilizes smart contracts. Having Turing Complete script evaluation just means the range of smart contracts possible becomes larger. So for example, schemes like Lightning Network are possible with Ethereum, without any changes to the protocol.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#89

Bitcoin has had several drastic price corrections in its life. We are yet to see this from Ether. I suspect the fall will be greater if it starts >$100. Of course, we will look back on this in 5 years and think $100 ETHER was cheap!

Ether dropped from $20 to $6 post-DAO-hack.

Re: What does $100 Ether mean?

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bigger computers equals faster search, which we could explain to non techies as buying more lottery tickets. I try never to explain mining to a general audience. It's too low level for a clean semantic mapping between what they want to know about, and how it all really works.

Maybe this analogy would work: Imaging a million haystacks with a million different keys scattered within them. There is a lock which only one of those keys can open; it is difficult to find the key, but when you do, anyone can easily verify it is correct by turning it in the lock. Once a key has been found, a new lock is created and the process starts again. The more robots (mining power) you have to search for the…

Besides explaining how we are looking for a nonce, I find it both difficult as well as elucidating to explain how whomever mined a block is rewarded.

The main point of block-chain is decentralization. It is thus important to emphasize that there isn't a central authority that rewards the mining of a block, but instead that the miner includes his reward in the block. It is also important (though less relevant) that the challenge of mining a block is a mathematical result of the last block. It too arises without a central authority.

Moving to even less relevant and yet interesting thing is that not all miners need be mining the same block. This is already the case for the 'reward' they are mining, but miners are free to exclude a transaction from their mining attempts. This then begets the matter of fees as a secondary incentive for mining besides the block reward.

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