AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage • Hacker News Board

Re: AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage

#81

Post by hazzen » Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 2:38 PM UTC

ergo98 wrote: post #79

nuclear_eclipse wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood the argument that capping data plans will improve the "experience" for the non-heavy users. Capping doesn't change the fact that AT&T does not have the tower capacity to support as many iPhone users as they already have, so even if they can curb the 2% of heavy users, the other 98% are still overloading their towers and receiving poor service. The only thing data caps do is generate more money f…

>I've never understood the argument that capping data plans will improve the "experience" for the non-heavy users. It isn't a difficult concept. A very small number of people contribute significantly to the network load. Yeah, ideally there's more capacity than anyone can ever use, but back here in reality that would be remarkably expensive to fulfill. It's the same thing with crime, btw: A very, very small percentag…

You are implying that a few heavy users are the cause of everyone else's poor experience (a non-obviois fact), and you compare this to frequent offenders placing a high burden on police forces (a somewhat more plausible fact). I agree that it may make intuitive sense that if I use 10x the bandwidth as you that I use 10x the capacity, but I am not convinced this is a fact. Do you have any support for this claim?

Re: AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage

#82

Post by steveklabnik » Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 2:40 PM UTC

ergo98 wrote: post #79

nuclear_eclipse wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood the argument that capping data plans will improve the "experience" for the non-heavy users. Capping doesn't change the fact that AT&T does not have the tower capacity to support as many iPhone users as they already have, so even if they can curb the 2% of heavy users, the other 98% are still overloading their towers and receiving poor service. The only thing data caps do is generate more money f…

>I've never understood the argument that capping data plans will improve the "experience" for the non-heavy users. It isn't a difficult concept. A very small number of people contribute significantly to the network load. Yeah, ideally there's more capacity than anyone can ever use, but back here in reality that would be remarkably expensive to fulfill. It's the same thing with crime, btw: A very, very small percentag…

> It's the same thing with crime, btw: A very, very small percentage of people are responsible for the overwhelming bulk of crime.

Is there a study that shows this? Intuitively, it makes sense, but I'm curious. Of course, we must be talking about serious crimes, as pretty much everyone breaks some sort of law almost every day.

Re: AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage

#83

Post by ryanwanger » Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 3:03 PM UTC

I'm sure AT&T knows more than me about pricing but...

I doubt the fact that they'll be getting tons of new customers because people can now save $10 a month. Apple has intentionally scaled back on the number of different models they offer (on all products). Why? Because otherwise there is too much choice.

Most people have no idea how much data they use in a single month, and as mentioned 98% aren't using a massive amount. So, to squeeze a few extra dollars out of the 2%, they just made the decision way more complicated for everyone.

People buy iPhones because they are sexy, easy to use, their friends have them, etc. There is no need to complicate the purchasing decision by forcing people to start guesstimating their data usage.

What happens now when my mom decides to get an iPhone? Before she could buy knowing that "it just works". Now, she's going to call me and start asking questions about which plan she should get, then get confused by the answers (since tech-wise we don't really even speak the same language). All of the sudden, it's starting to seem like a headache.

For each customer they don't sign up because of the complicated pricing (or those they lose because people who don't use that much bandwidth are now afraid that they're going to be constantly being charged for overages), they would have to sign up an extra 6-10 customers who signed up because they can get a plan for $10 a month less than they could have before.

Seems unlikely, no?

Re: AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage

#84

Post by lutorm » Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 3:15 PM UTC

awa wrote: post #10

potatolicious wrote: post #9

I too dislike how AT&T foisted these prices on us - but I disagree with the author here. He seems to be advocating that there's something wrong with not consuming 1.5-2GB a month. He's a heavy user - cool, but I see no reason for the majority of the world to be just like him. > "Why are so many people using so little bandwidth? Or, put another way, you should be ashamed of yourself if you sell a device like the iPhon…

I think he wants to say AT&T should get the users hooked to using lot of data, so they as a subscription company can keep making money from users for a longer time.

Your argument makes no sense to me. Why would the length of my subscription with AT&T have anything to do with how much data I use? If I only use 100MB a month and am happy with that, how would paying less for it make me leave AT&T faster?

Re: AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage

#85

Post by spoiledtechie » Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 3:17 PM UTC

Does anyone realize with the new Camera on the front of the Iphone coming out, this Data usage issue will change drastically?

The Camera phone will use Data. They are charging for more data. They are set to make a bit of money off this...

Re: AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage

#86

Post by lutorm » Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 3:21 PM UTC

makecheck wrote: post #15

There is usage-based billing for utilities , so it is theoretically possible to do this fairly with other things. However, it requires the corresponding regulations: for gas and electricity, you have meters; you also have labeling requirements on the products you buy, so that you can tell what they're going to be using. Apps don't have meters, and they don't have any mandate to tell you that they're hogs. Therefore,…

You do have a point, but really: when was the last time you went and looked at your meter to make sure you weren't using too much? Or looked at how much energy something used when deciding whether to buy it?

The problem is that power use is limited by physics. If your gas stove valve was stuck open and was venting your gas line you'd know, because the house would turn into an oven. Bandwidth use is not limited by any laws except the capacity of the device, so the difference in usage can vary over a much larger range than power use can.

Re: AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage

#87

Post by lutorm » Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 3:26 PM UTC

Timothee wrote: post #11

Some specific points of the new pricing are really outrageous honestly. The fact that they do tiered-pricing is, while annoying, kind of their prerogative. It actually sounds like it could save me a few bucks. However, paying $20 (!) to have access to tethering without extra bandwidth, is complete non-sense. I just can't find a reasonable explanation for this. As well as the price for extra data for DataPlus plan: $1…

The tethering thing irks me too. If I pay to get 2gb of data, AT&T has no business telling me what kind of information my 2gb constitute. This is a blatant violation of net neutrality, so it seems that when (if?) these services get reclassified as network providers then these sorts of things will never holdup.

Re: AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage

#88

Post by kscaldef » Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 3:29 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #23

martey wrote: post #14

In the short term, I am not sure that this is that big of a deal. My data use would be 3 to 4 times higher than it is now (and thus approaching the author's) were it not for the fact that most of the time I am using my phone on a day-to-day basis, it is in areas with wifi (since I live in Cambridge MA, it is conceivably possible that I have wifi coverage 90-100% of the time; to save battery, my radio is off unless I…

Your suggestion that people need to curb their 3G usage to help AT&T's poor towers is precisely the logic they're employing. It isn't valid, though. The capacity of AT&T's network is not a finite resource. They can make more. In fact, the government gave them money to improve their network, but they just pocketed it and opted to create artificial scarcity instead. In other words, AT&T's towers are overwhelmed because…

> In other words, AT&T's towers are overwhelmed because AT&T didn't build enough capacity. That's not my fault and I shouldn't be paying for it.

Who exactly is supposed to pay for it, if not the people using it?

Re: AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage

#89

Post by URSpider94 » Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 3:46 PM UTC

Hey entrepreneurs: pretend for a moment that AT&T is YOUR company. You have a hit on your hands (the iPhone), but one that has crippled your network in major metro areas like San Francisco and New York. Investing in new cell towers means not just millions in capital expenses, but also years spent arguing with NIMBY neighborhood associations who don't want to see any more of your ugly towers. And, you have a way to reduce the monthly fee for 98% of your users, prompting MORE people to sign up for revenue-generating data plans, while dis-incentivizing the 2% who use the most data. What would you do?

As to those who are wondering why they have to pay extra for tethering, are you really surprised that a company would charge more for a service that you value, which will result in heavier usage of their resources? How many Hacker News readers run web companies with "freemium" business models? How do you sleep at night charging your customers for only twice the number of accounts/downloads/records that you give away for free to others?

Re: AT&T Learns Exactly the Wrong Lesson About Data Usage

#90

Post by Timothee » Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 3:47 PM UTC

liedra wrote: post #33

Timothee wrote: post #11

Some specific points of the new pricing are really outrageous honestly. The fact that they do tiered-pricing is, while annoying, kind of their prerogative. It actually sounds like it could save me a few bucks. However, paying $20 (!) to have access to tethering without extra bandwidth, is complete non-sense. I just can't find a reasonable explanation for this. As well as the price for extra data for DataPlus plan: $1…

A friend of mine who works for Apple told me (a year or so ago) that the reason for this is because ATT (and similar companies in other countries) wants to discourage tethering due to the fact that they don't have the infrastructure to accommodate lots of high bandwidth connections that you use when you tether. They were gambling on the fact that you need to do a lot more "work" at the moment still to browse/etc. on…

I can understand this idea when it's an unlimited plan: if you tether, you're likely to use a lot more bandwidth than with just your phone. So, if you tether, you'll impact the infrastructure.

But since they're limiting your bandwidth already, I'm not so sure why it matters if you use it from a laptop or from your phone.

In the end, I know why they're doing it: because they can, and because they want to limit the number of people who do it. It just bothers me because it doesn't make sense technically.