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Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

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Re: Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

#81

Post by mnm1 »

hrehhf wrote: post #72
NicoJuicy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I think your dead wrong. Watch what happens when you defriend Europe as a partner to your economy. We share a lot ( not the only country though), but if you attack us, we don't need to do anything... People just stop being interested in your country and your economy slips away. No outside Western investments and tourism anymore. I don't know if that's a good thing, but you shouldn't be happy with what Erdog…

I think a lot of Turkish citizens, and the Turkish government, are frustrated with the long time it has taken and now they have become ambivalent, feeling like they will never be allowed to join the EU. Its very easy to each side to blame the other, but from the Turkish perspective, there needs to be a concrete timeline for the process. Indeed for several years there are clear problems in Turkey that would block them…

I didn't know Turkey's EU membership was still being considered. I think it's quite clear that EU membership will not happen under Erdogan or any government he or his successors set up. Even if he were removed, there is a long way to go. You have to be a free democratic country. Instead of working towards that, in the last year, all Turkey has done is show the world the opposite. How can you possibly expect things to speed up when the Turkish government is doing everything it can to put the brakes on the deal?

Re: Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

#82

Post by hospes »

enraged_camel wrote: post #64
shepardrtc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banishment? You mean genocide, right?

It started out as exile. The Ottomans basically rounded up large numbers of Armenian civilians and forcefully marched them from Eastern Anatolia to today's Syria, in the hopes that separating them from their Turkish neighbors (with whom they were fighting violently) would put an end to what was seen as a civil distraction during war. Countless Armenians perished along the way as a result of gross incompetence and neg…

Word "Genocide" was introduced by Raphael Lemkin to describe systematic extermination of Armenians and Jews by Young Turks in Ottoman Empire and by Nazis in Europe.

Here is Raphael Lemkin explaining it himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moByGLA7FDc

Genocide was thoroughly planned and executed by Ottoman Government which was run by Young Turks. Archives of multiple countries have documented evidence of the fact that it was Planned Systematic Extermination of Armenians - Genocide. There are archives from US embassy in Turkey, German archives, French Archives and press archives from that period that all confirm that.

Genocide did not start with marching people to deserts in Syria. It started with arrests and massacre of around 250 political and cultural leaders of Armenian origin, to prevent any organized resistance. [1]

Entire civilized world recognizes these events as a Genocide. One of the latest recognitions came from German government (in 2015). They were allies of Ottoman Empire by that time and did not do much to prevent the Genocide. [2]

Please do not spread misinformation and mislead people.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_recognition

Re: Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

#83

Post by aanm1988 »

hackuser wrote: post #66
int_19h wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Senate, the simple 50% majority is by design. That's consistent with most other bicameral parliaments out there, which also vote on a simple majority basis. Since the issues they can vote on are restricted by the Constitution, it's not really a big deal. The big deal is amending the Constitution itself, which is extremely difficult (if anything, probably more difficult than it should be).

> Since the issues they can vote on are restricted by the Constitution, it's not really a big deal. I don't agree. The U.S. Senate is very powerful; those restrictions aren't very broad. > the simple 50% majority is by design It depends what you mean. The filibuster, which requires 60% majority, has been part of the Senate since around the 1840s; clearly many generations of Senators thought it was important and inten…

Yeah, but the republicans do what they want. Many probably thought the whole actually voting on supreme court nominees should continue.

Re: Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

#84

Post by tdb7893 »

treehau5 wrote: post #12
tdb7893 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was already used as one? I don't particularly care what it's used for as long as it's generally open to the public, are they planning on closing it off to people or tearing it down or something?

If anything it should be a Orthodox Church, but since no one can agree on that, it should be transferred to UNESCO, and treated as a cultural site and museum. If it resumes being used as a Mosque, to avoid any slippery slope fallacies, it will most likely result in a lot of the preservation of the historicity of the location being lost.

I feel like it's use as a mosque is part of its history now. as long as they don't destroy any of the history it doesn't bother me that it is a mosque.

EDIT: it's -> its

Re: Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

#85

Post by aanm1988 »

Vorch wrote: post #80
hospes wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are calling Genocide of 1.5 million of their own citizens "banishment". And then you advice people to go and read on the subject. Your lack of education on the topic of Armenian Genocide is astonishing.

I am calling the relocation of troublesome Armenians to Syria as banishment. Armenians perished along the way, it wasn't a systematic killing. Death toll of Armenians were only 500.000 while it was 1 million on Turkish side. After living 600 years peacefully Armenians got greedy and betrayed Turkish people with the help of Russians. Check my first comment there was even Armenian ministers in the government that time,…

> relocation of troublesome Armenians to Syria as banishment

didn't they "relocate" them by forcing them to march through the desert?

Re: Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

#86

Post by Vorch »

aanm1988 wrote: post #85
Vorch wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am calling the relocation of troublesome Armenians to Syria as banishment. Armenians perished along the way, it wasn't a systematic killing. Death toll of Armenians were only 500.000 while it was 1 million on Turkish side. After living 600 years peacefully Armenians got greedy and betrayed Turkish people with the help of Russians. Check my first comment there was even Armenian ministers in the government that time,…

> relocation of troublesome Armenians to Syria as banishment didn't they "relocate" them by forcing them to march through the desert?

Most of the Armenians were located in Eastern part of Anatolia. As far as I can see there is no desert in between Syria and Eastern Anatolia.

Re: Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

#87

Post by gkya »

Vorch wrote: post #80
hospes wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are calling Genocide of 1.5 million of their own citizens "banishment". And then you advice people to go and read on the subject. Your lack of education on the topic of Armenian Genocide is astonishing.

I am calling the relocation of troublesome Armenians to Syria as banishment. Armenians perished along the way, it wasn't a systematic killing. Death toll of Armenians were only 500.000 while it was 1 million on Turkish side. After living 600 years peacefully Armenians got greedy and betrayed Turkish people with the help of Russians. Check my first comment there was even Armenian ministers in the government that time,…

While some Armenian independence organisations did use terrorism as a means, and indeed the question of the Armenian genocide is not that of the Ottoman Empire's momentary caprice to remove Armenians as a worse people like it was in the Holocaust (Holocaust and Medz Yeghern are incredibly different events, the former was head hunting against completely peaceful people for stupid racial ideals), the genocide happened, and words like betrayal and greed in what amounts to a global war of greed and massacres sound childish. If as Turks we have the right to indipendence as a people, so does ever other peoples.

Re: Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

#88

Post by hrehhf »

mnm1 wrote: post #81
hrehhf wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of Turkish citizens, and the Turkish government, are frustrated with the long time it has taken and now they have become ambivalent, feeling like they will never be allowed to join the EU. Its very easy to each side to blame the other, but from the Turkish perspective, there needs to be a concrete timeline for the process. Indeed for several years there are clear problems in Turkey that would block them…

I didn't know Turkey's EU membership was still being considered. I think it's quite clear that EU membership will not happen under Erdogan or any government he or his successors set up. Even if he were removed, there is a long way to go. You have to be a free democratic country. Instead of working towards that, in the last year, all Turkey has done is show the world the opposite. How can you possibly expect things to…

>How can you possibly expect things to speed up when the Turkish government is doing everything it can to put the brakes on the deal?

I was trying to say that Turks have, more or less, given up on joining the EU. Not because they don't want to, but because they feel like it has become hopeless. I agree that the past several years have done nothing to help the situation.

Remember, Turkey joining is supposed to be mutually beneficial, so if EU sees some benefit to Turkey joining, then probably there needs to be a concrete timeline (so that Turks see light at the end of the tunnel) and, obviously, Turkey will have to meet the requirements. For many years, Turkey was a free democratic country (though not perfect!) but still they did not join the EU.

edit: Turkey first applied for membership to the EU about 30 years ago. That is a long time; longer than any other applicant to the EU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_European_Un...

Re: Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

#89

Post by vixen99 »

tdb7893 wrote: post #84
treehau5 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything it should be a Orthodox Church, but since no one can agree on that, it should be transferred to UNESCO, and treated as a cultural site and museum. If it resumes being used as a Mosque, to avoid any slippery slope fallacies, it will most likely result in a lot of the preservation of the historicity of the location being lost.

I feel like it's use as a mosque is part of its history now. as long as they don't destroy any of the history it doesn't bother me that it is a mosque. EDIT: it's -> its

its history

Re: Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

#90

Post by gkya »

mnm1 wrote: post #81
hrehhf wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of Turkish citizens, and the Turkish government, are frustrated with the long time it has taken and now they have become ambivalent, feeling like they will never be allowed to join the EU. Its very easy to each side to blame the other, but from the Turkish perspective, there needs to be a concrete timeline for the process. Indeed for several years there are clear problems in Turkey that would block them…

I didn't know Turkey's EU membership was still being considered. I think it's quite clear that EU membership will not happen under Erdogan or any government he or his successors set up. Even if he were removed, there is a long way to go. You have to be a free democratic country. Instead of working towards that, in the last year, all Turkey has done is show the world the opposite. How can you possibly expect things to…

Hungary.
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