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What kind of girl do you think I am?

manylogue.com

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Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#81
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the morals of a society are not constant. They are a function of the morals of the individuals living in a society. What was perfectly acceptable in the 12th century is barbaric now. In a century or two we will seem barbarians to our descendants. (And they will still be saying that their generation lost all morals and humans will soon die out.)

I wonder for what reasons our society will be judged barbaric by our descendants.

Irak, the SUV vehicles, the bullying in schools, people parasiting the welfare system, the predatory banking practices, all those things seem barbaric to me.

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#82
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure the managers at BP that choose to forego certain safety measures completely recognize themselves in this line of reasoning. Which immediately illustrates how dangerously false it is. Companies are amoral (not to be confused with immoral) entities that will not necessarily act in the people's best behavior. If companies act in a morally acceptable way, it is because of the individual employees that together m…

On the other hand: Chernobyl

Chernobyl is an example of people violating very clear safety rules, "Do not pull out the control rods past this point!"

(It's a lot more complicated than that, but it is most certainly not a "normal accident" like the BP one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster .)

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#83
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Actually the question does still hold interest IMO because it forces her to acknowledge to herself that she may have a price. You say: In reality, most people have made that choice long ago and we know that they have their consequentialist price. And I agree; however I wonder how many people consciously know what their "price" decision they have made. I once actually conducted this experiment with a group of…

I find this fascinating -- your reply and the parent to your reply (@Confusion) actually gave a lot of clarity to what I think on the matter. I'm 5 years out of college and I think my position has changed significantly since then. Until probably a year out of college I only thought very abstractly about questions like this and believed there was a large class of problems for which there is no price. Until a year or s…

but I've since found that the cash price point for sex for most women is not only "no price", but in fact far lower than I would have imagined.

I have a theory about this actually. Do you have any specific data r.e. what "prices" were accepted?

My theory is that below a certain margin (I never tested this you see) then it becomes a different matter. At , say, £10,000 you are trading your body, it is transaction. You are gaining the money.

At a certain lower bound it switches to being simply an incentive. "I'll buy you dinner if you'll sleep with me after". i.e. it sweetens the deal.

I very much doubt that anyone, if offered $100 right here right now would take you up on the offer (but, then, I've never tested it)

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#84
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Going into a business negotiation thinking either you or them are deontologists is selfdeception that will hinder you in your negotiations." Maybe. But in practice, it might be a simplifying assumption that either you or them are "deontologists" in the context of the negotiations because there is nothing you have to offer that has any chance of budging their position. In other words, she may be that kind of girl for…

True. Also, I've seen a number of negotiations broken off over pride--offers were made that were deemed "offensive." Don't be misled by treating everyone as "consequentialists" or you are very likely to step on a pride booby trap and cause the other party to sever negotiations. So in a practical sense, your simplifying assumption makes a lot of sense.

While I can't think of an instance where I've seen this myself, I remember my real estate agent warning me about this when I was buying my first house. Some buyers will simply not consider any offer you make if your first one is so far below what they are asking that they consider it insulting.

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#86
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Going into a business negotiation thinking either you or them are deontologists is selfdeception that will hinder you in your negotiations." Maybe. But in practice, it might be a simplifying assumption that either you or them are "deontologists" in the context of the negotiations because there is nothing you have to offer that has any chance of budging their position. In other words, she may be that kind of girl for…

True. Also, I've seen a number of negotiations broken off over pride--offers were made that were deemed "offensive." Don't be misled by treating everyone as "consequentialists" or you are very likely to step on a pride booby trap and cause the other party to sever negotiations. So in a practical sense, your simplifying assumption makes a lot of sense.

eh, I think in this case, 'pride' is really the other party saying 'this negotiation is not worth my time'. I know a while back I got some interest in someone buying out prgmr.com. Well, I listened to them, and they wanted to offer me a years revenue. I refused, of course, and broke off negotiations, but then I did some research, and come to find out, in my industry, that's a pretty average price.

Why would anyone sell a company that's doubling every 6 months for a year's take? it seems quite irrational to me. But, like I said, it's normal for this industry. Now, knowing what I know now, my answer wouldn't change, I mean, the other party (and the market) obviously placed a dramatically lower value on my company than I did, but if I knew this was fair market value, I'd have said no to their initial feeler before hearing their offer. Of course, I'll sell, for a price... but my price is so far above the 'fair market value' of the company that for all practical purposes, you can think of me as being completely unwilling to sell.

I mean, like everyone, I have my price, but I really, really like my company; my price is a /whole lot/ higher than one year's take.

so, uh, yeah; I think a lot of times breaking off negotiations upon hearing an 'offensive' offer is the result not of a wounded pride but of a clear misunderstanding of the market value of the good at hand by one or both parties.

If I'm willing to sleep with you for a million bucks and no less, if you offer me $100, it's probably not worth my time to try to talk you up. In that case, assuming that you are unable or unwilling to pay me the million bucks, there is /no difference/ between me being willing to sleep with you for a million bucks, and me not being willing to sleep with you for any amount of money at all.

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#87
post #63

The million-dollar question is interesting *because it forces her to really decide* what kind of girl she is. The question actually isn't very interesting at all, because the it suggests there is still a choice to be made. In reality, most people have made that choice long ago and we know that they have their consequentialist price. The price may be a million dollars, saving a hundred people's lives, getting revenge…

Agreed. Actually the question does still hold interest IMO because it forces her to acknowledge to herself that she may have a price. You say: In reality, most people have made that choice long ago and we know that they have their consequentialist price. And I agree; however I wonder how many people consciously know what their "price" decision they have made. I once actually conducted this experiment with a group of…

Actually the question does still hold interest IMO because it forces her to acknowledge to herself that she may have a price.

This is ridiculous. The question does make her uncomfortable, but not because of the question itself. She knows she'll sleep with a guy for a million dollars. She's thought about it. She may have even thought about her "price" for letting a man fuck her. The problem is she knows the limits on what she's supposed to say and how she's supposed to present herself, and here's this clueless jerk trying to force her beyond them. She's playing the game, navigating social rules, and he isn't even acknowledging the tight spot he's put her in. In fact, he's simultaneously relishing her discomfort and resenting her for feeling that way. What does she do? To get through the situation as easily and harmlessly as possible, she either denies the legitimacy of the argument or names absurdly large amounts of money.

To really get a woman's price, she'd have to be assured of discretion. And her price would, ultimately, be affected by her confidence in the assurances of discretion offered. Her price for prostituting herself openly would be much higher, though not as high as the price she's willing to admit to in the original joke or the experiment you describe. After all, in the experiment, she pays the price of advertising her willingness to have sex for money without actually getting the money. A million pounds buys a lot of honesty -- what were you offering? Even with the check, you haven't established a credible offer. The woman would have a lot of doubts that would be difficult to overcome. Is it a scam? Why me? Does this guy want to hurt me or humiliate me? Is this a mean-spirited prank organized by one of my exes? From her point of view, it's vanishingly unlikely to be a genuine offer. She's thinking, "If I even give this guy a chance to prove his bona fides, I'll probably be putting myself at risk." After all, even if he actually has a million pounds in his checking account, he's still more likely to be a killer than a guy who pays a million pounds for sex. Just sayin'. She's not stupid. And if the guy is serious, the onus is on him to prove that he understands her reservations and to think of some way to reassure her. Her initial response shouldn't deter him.

Anyway, to depart from your experiment and get back to the conversation in the joke as it's usually told -- no longer talking about your experiment -- it's a typical conversation for socially incompetent young geeks who are frustrated by all the social taboos, who suspect (partly correctly) that everyone around them is screwing like rabbits, and who are so painfully frustrated about not being able to talk about it that they make fools of themselves beating their heads against the wall of taboo with rational arguments instead doing something that might actually clear the way to frank conversation, such as cultivating trust and intimacy. (Gosh, I just might be speaking from experience here.)

So the whole thing resolves to a guy making a girl uncomfortable and taking her refusal to be outré for stupidity. That's pretty dickish. Especially when the point is to make yourself look smart in comparison. I have NO idea why Feynman liked this joke, except that maybe he used it as a racy line-crossing move when chatting up women, in which case the logic itself is kind of beside the point. I supposed he knew the right moment to push it. Or maybe he just knew his audience. But that would make him a bit of a misogynist, since he would know -- admit it -- that the chief delight of this story for most people is not whipping it out Feynman-style at just the right moment when a woman is ready to let down her barriers. The chief appeal for most is getting the last laugh on a woman who wouldn't let you past her facade of propriety. Why would he stoop to that kind of pandering?

Anyway, the original word game breaks down if you examine it just a little. If I'd bake a loaf of bread for a million dollars, am I a baker?

If I'd do your taxes for a million dollars, am I a tax accountant?

If I'd write a book for a million dollars, am I a writer?

If I'd change your oil for a million dollars, am I an auto mechanic?

If I'd teach a yoga class for a million dollars, am I a yoga instructor?

So is she a prostitute? Clearly not. Is she a whore? Well, yeah, quite often she is, in the sense that the word "whore" in any language usually means a woman whose sexual activity makes the speaker feel bad in some way.

But don't worry about this line of reasoning, or any other, being used against you when you whip this gem out at a party, because the response will divide between a couple of straight-up misogynists enthusiastically backing you up and a majority who just distance themselves from you, possibly by scoring points off you in some irrational way that is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the point you're trying to make, because people are STUPID and more interested in playing STUPID SOCIAL GAMES than actually THINKING. So your point is unchallenged! Unrefuted! Whoohoo! (Sarcasm aimed at the original joke and at my teenage self, not personally at you.)

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#88
post #87
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Actually the question does still hold interest IMO because it forces her to acknowledge to herself that she may have a price. You say: In reality, most people have made that choice long ago and we know that they have their consequentialist price. And I agree; however I wonder how many people consciously know what their "price" decision they have made. I once actually conducted this experiment with a group of…

Actually the question does still hold interest IMO because it forces her to acknowledge to herself that she may have a price. This is ridiculous. The question does make her uncomfortable, but not because of the question itself. She knows she'll sleep with a guy for a million dollars. She's thought about it. She may have even thought about her "price" for letting a man fuck her. The problem is she knows the limits on…

She knows she'll sleep with a guy for a million dollars. She's thought about it.

A reasonable point; except you've asserted that and I'm not sure it's true. Do you have any data to back up the theory? Because one of the things that became clear to me was people hadn't really and truly considered it; there was a lot of thinking going on.

I realise the experiment was flawed; and we tested too few people to really make any definite observations.

However the aim was not to present it as a serious offer; but as a thought exercise. Once over the "wtf is this guy asking me" moment at the start we spent quite a while with each person (in private) discussing his/her thoughts. This made it a little more solid.

I agree with the idea that the joke is idiotic; clearly it is just misogynist crap (or, very occasionally just a racy joke - I've pulled it out maybe once to rescue a date :)).

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#89
post #60
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys really don't see how misogynistic these articles are, do you?

Is that a good reason for downvoting all comments? The example may be misogynistic, but the idea that the example is an example of is not. Also, suppose that the genders were removed: X: “If I gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with me?” Y: “A million dollars is a lot of money, and you don’t look that bad, so I guess I would consider it” X: “Ok, since I don’t have a million dollars, would you sleep with me f…

If you read X as two X chromosomes and Y as XY, you still have genders :)

Re: What kind of girl do you think I am?

#90
post #88
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the question does still hold interest IMO because it forces her to acknowledge to herself that she may have a price. This is ridiculous. The question does make her uncomfortable, but not because of the question itself. She knows she'll sleep with a guy for a million dollars. She's thought about it. She may have even thought about her "price" for letting a man fuck her. The problem is she knows the limits on…

She knows she'll sleep with a guy for a million dollars. She's thought about it. A reasonable point; except you've asserted that and I'm not sure it's true. Do you have any data to back up the theory? Because one of the things that became clear to me was people hadn't really and truly considered it; there was a lot of thinking going on. I realise the experiment was flawed; and we tested too few people to really make…

It doesn't matter how many people you test, because you can't establish a credible offer of that much money. Can you describe a situation that you could actually set up in which a woman would think she was more likely to get a million pounds than to get dragged into a basement, tortured, raped, and murdered? Of course both of those scenarios would be far outside chances compared to the chances that somebody was just trying to play a humiliating joke on her or steal her identity.

The question a woman's brain is really engaged with in these scenarios is, "What's the safest way to deal with this situation?" That applies even if she actually knows you and is a modern liberal woman, because she's got to walk a line between seeming prudish or dishonest and triggering the insecurity thats lurk in every male breast.

[Edit: sorry for all the unacknowledged edits; since HN has no "preview" button I just post and edit.]

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