Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 136 posts

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#81

Post by belorn »

snarf21 wrote: post #30
m52go wrote: post #3

I can't read the whole article, but does it (or DOL documents) include details like amount of experience and job function? I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. Curious if that applies here, and if so, to what degree. Edit: consider recent headlines promoting outrage at Marissa Mayer's successor earning double her salary beca…

I can't find the source but I read something recently that said that after controlling for position and experience the pay gap is around 7%. Off the cuff, I find that to match my intuition. If you could hire women engineers for 80% of the equivalent man, then all companies would wan't to hire every other companies women at 90% of equivalent because they would still be getting a deal and the women would get a big pay…

That 7% isn't uniform through all age groups. At below age 25 women at the some education and position earn more than men. from age 25-35 the wage gap reverts, and from age 35 and up men earn more than women. With a work force that generally starts at age 20 and stop work at around age 60 the total result gives you that 7%.

So what would a rational fix be to that?

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#82

Post by coldtea »

inopinatus wrote: post #64
jjoonathan wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving the workforce is generally believed to negatively impact people of every gender's ability to contribute productively. If you want to claim that women or types of absences specific to women are special, the burden of proof is on you. EDIT: I see you've removed the claim I was addressing in an edit. Wish I'd quoted it.

Yeah, because it masked my main point. I'm happy to answer for it though. That "general belief" is simply another systematic problem. I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every ti…

>I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every time.

Well, these are not the types of leaves we're discussing.

Besides this is anecdotal at best. It's not like most "gaps on a CV" lead to "increased skill-sets".

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#83

Post by coldtea »

Caprinicus wrote: post #43
hannob wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. The question you may ask here however is: Does it matter? I mean I agree that it matters from "getting the facts straight", but maybe not necessarily from the conclusions. If the pay gap is due to less experience, less education etc., then you're seeing effects of earlier discrimination…

What if men and women naturally have different priorities as far as what jobs they want to take and how much they want to work?

That's blasphemy. You are only allowed to think that physiology and millions of years of different evolutionary developments are totally irrelevant, and that this is the year zero: all divergent cultural and historical choices between the sexes were only and solely the result of oppression and discrimination, and sexes only differ in having different reproductive organs.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#84

Post by [deleted] »

coldtea wrote: post #82
inopinatus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because it masked my main point. I'm happy to answer for it though. That "general belief" is simply another systematic problem. I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every ti…

> I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every time. Well, these are not the types of leaves we're discussing. Besides this is anecdotal at best. It's not like most "gaps on a CV" l…

[deleted]

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#85

Post by user5994461 »

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #32

This often happens in cultures - not sure Google is such a culture - were you negotiate your initial salary, raises and need to push for promotions. When advising women on interviewing I always suggest they ask for more money than they are comfortable with.

> When advising women on interviewing I always suggest they ask for more money than they are comfortable with.

I do the same for men.

Saw a few guys jump ship recently for significant raises. Turns out they were badly underpaid :D

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#86

Post by Afton »

Caprinicus wrote: post #43
hannob wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. The question you may ask here however is: Does it matter? I mean I agree that it matters from "getting the facts straight", but maybe not necessarily from the conclusions. If the pay gap is due to less experience, less education etc., then you're seeing effects of earlier discrimination…

What if men and women naturally have different priorities as far as what jobs they want to take and how much they want to work?

What if that same excuse has been used as far back as you choose to look for all sorts of discrimination? It's not that it can't possibly be right, but it's a hypothesis to be forced to, not to grab and promote above all others. And we just haven't been forced to it yet.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#87

Post by CharlesW »

user5994461 wrote: post #71
simonsarris wrote: post #31

What they're counting matters. It seems if Google has the goal of hiring more females than industry average, then the stats are stacked against them when you look at their worker pay distribution, even if Google isn't doing anything wrong. Suppose the population is distributed in their experience and productivity, and that you can measure these to some extent. Suppose your field has way more males than females. This…

> If you are fairly paying both genders, wouldn't you necessarily have to take more unproductive and inexperienced female engineers to reach your goal? And if you're fairly paying based on those criteria, won't the female population be paid less as you try to take on a more-than-average number of them? If you are fairly paying both genders, it's fair to assume that women would be paid less statistically. They usually…

> They usually retire from work mid-career for pregnancy and possibly for a much longer time to raise the child…

No. Here's how it actually works in a modern family unit in a high-earning, dual-income Silicon Valley household:

Mommy takes time off when babby is born, as does daddy because it's not 1960. At some point during this sabbatical help is hired, and then mommy and daddy go back to work and establish their new work/home balance. The end.

It's not conceptually that different than sabbaticals not involving babies. It certainly doesn't explain systemic pay discrimination.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#88

Post by inopinatus »

coldtea wrote: post #82
inopinatus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because it masked my main point. I'm happy to answer for it though. That "general belief" is simply another systematic problem. I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every ti…

> I've left the workforce numerous times to go do something interesting (defining the initial parameters of a new human life definitely fall into this category, but that's not the only social construction that can pull women out of the workforce), and it's increased my skill-set every time. Well, these are not the types of leaves we're discussing. Besides this is anecdotal at best. It's not like most "gaps on a CV" l…

It is exactly what I'm discussing.

Most gaps on a CV are due to someone going off to do something else interesting, like study, or see the world and meet new types of people, or to deal with some major life challenge or event, all of which I correlate to increased professional utility. If someone can't see or use that, they're a poor manager.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#89

Post by denzil_correa »

tyingq wrote: post #74
denzil_correa wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DoL has NOT reached any conclusion. DoL has a suspicion based on 2015 snapshot of salaries. They want to understand why there's a disparity. It may or may not be due to a gender wage gap but for that conclusion to be reached you need to have access to data they have requested from Google.

Right, but the DOL is absolutely stating things that sound like conclusions, not suspicions: "We found systemic compensation disparities against women pretty much across the entire workforce" That statement obviously depends on numbers they already have, and are not sharing.

No, they DoL is not stating anything like conclusions. Read through the court documents again.

> Wipper said the department found pay disparities in a 2015 snapshot of salaries and said officials needed earlier compensation data to evaluate the root of the problem and needed to be able to confidentially interview employees.

They found pay disparities in a 2015 snapshot and now want to investigate further.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#90

Post by denzil_correa »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #79
denzil_correa wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article says that Google thinks the DOL is going on a fishing expedition. That's because the system is designed in such a way. The DoL can't make a case without access to meaningful data. So, if the system is designed to make access difficult this is what we end up with. > They turned over records They did not turn over records - that's what the entire lawsuit is about as mentioned in the court documents.

Clearly they've turned over at least some records before. They're making their case with 2015 data.

I don't think so. The lawsuit clearly mentions that Google denied access to data. In fact, Google attorney is on record saying that we denied access too.
Post reply on HN