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Douglas Coupland: The nine to five is barbaric

theguardian.com

81–84 of 84 posts

Re: Douglas Coupland: The nine to five is barbaric

#81
post #69
post #9

Not that I'm one to disagree, because day jobs are fucking bullshit, but... I worry that as advanced technology continues to unfurl evermore convenience into our lives, how spoiled will we become?

It's interesting that you choose to use the word "spoiled" here. It is a testament to how firmly entrenched the class system is.

I'm not sure we understand each other.

If there comes a moment when no single individual knows how to perform essential tasks, because automated sytems have been doing such tasks for us, and then those systems stop working, we'll notice serious problems emerging unexpectedly.

Re: Douglas Coupland: The nine to five is barbaric

#82
post #67
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I think you're understating the amount of free time people had in the past, especially with respect to hunter gatherer societies. 2) Joining an autonomous hunter gatherer society obviously isn't possible now, because they doesn't exist. The paraphrased "it's your choice, if you hate the 40 hour a week routine so much, just become a hunter gatherer in the Rockies" line doesn't cut it. Even when hunter gatherer soci…

That is an extraordinary claim you're making, that people had to be forced to remain within agricultural societies. Of the scholarship in this area that I'm familiar with, nothing supports this. If you're aware of research that suggests otherwise, please share it. I often see this nostalgia about how much better things used to be, compared to how bad it is now, whether that time period is 5, 25, 100 or in your case,…

Off the top of my head, there's Jared Diamond's "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race" [1] (popular writing, so grain of salt) and James Scott's more academic "The Art of Not Being Governed" [2]. From the first reference, "One straight forward example of what paleopathologists have learned from skeletons concerns historical changes in height. Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5'9" for men, 5'5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5'3" for men, 5' for women. By classical times heights were very slowly on the rise again, but modern Greeks and Turks have still not regained the average height of their distant ancestors."

So a few points. First of all, you elide between comparing hunter gatherer societies to early sedentary societies and contemporary industrialized societies. They are very much not the same, and I prefer contemporary industrial societies over both. This was purely a statement of leisure time, which was higher in HG societies than contemporary ones.

The comparison between early sedentary and hunter gatherer societies is where hunter gatherer societies have a pretty attractive value proposition. Some points: the threat models between agricultural and hunter gatherer societies are different, and you can sustain a higher population per acre with agriculture, obviously. But people never wholeheartedly embraced sedentary, centralized societies. They germinated in particularly fertile areas where states could most effectively maintain themselves and extract excess value from highly productive land and labor.

But if being agricultural and sedentary were an obvious, natural course of events that everyone would choose, you'd see agriculture and sedentary states rapidly spreading to the boundaries of the geography that can support people via agriculture. That's not what you see: you see constantly fluctuating exteriors in a contested relation with borderlands. The people living in those areas constantly switched sides depending on convenience and what was best for them at a given time. For instance, sometimes, Han China would offer incentives for people to take up sedentary agriculture (no taxes!), and they did. But this wasn't stable, and people would be more than happy to switch back to other lifestyles depending on the state of the economy and the incentives they faced.

Over time, the total area of those borderlands shrunk as a result of technological progress and more capable states. But this took literally millenia.

[1] http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Not_Being_Governed

Re: Douglas Coupland: The nine to five is barbaric

#83
post #79
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I think you're understating the amount of free time people had in the past, especially with respect to hunter gatherer societies. 2) Joining an autonomous hunter gatherer society obviously isn't possible now, because they doesn't exist. The paraphrased "it's your choice, if you hate the 40 hour a week routine so much, just become a hunter gatherer in the Rockies" line doesn't cut it. Even when hunter gatherer soci…

"Joining an autonomous hunter gatherer society obviously isn't possible now, because they doesn't exist." Yes, they do, even now. Of course, they're so inconsequential on the world stage that you don't hear about them much, but yes, they exist. Now, you have the problem that they probably won't accept you, and will probably eventually try to kill you if you seriously set up next to them and start truly doing the hunt…

No one is claiming that hunter gatherers were peaceful. It weakens your argument to try to put words into people's mouths. I might as well say, "well, why are you claiming that there's no crime or inequality in modern society? There obviously is!!!1!"

And no, they don't. Sure, you can find a random tribe in the barren wastelands of the Kalahari that's ostensibly "hunter gatherer," but they are much more integrated into the economy of South Africa than any hunter gatherer society would have been two thousand years ago. Most people born into those hunter gatherer-lite societies spend at least some time working in the capitalist economy.

Compare that to millenia ago, where hunter gatherers occupied some of the most economically productive regions of the world. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

Re: Douglas Coupland: The nine to five is barbaric

#84
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the way most humans in history--and many still today--have had to scrimp for survival, working long hours in the fields, barely achieving subsistence, sharecropping for feudal lords or tyrannical landlords. We should have never left our hunter-gatherer lifestyle. :)

Because nothing beats dying at the ripe old age 30 with a toothless mouth, body failing of undernourishment and disease (especially parasites), common death in childbirth, the slightest infection becoming a death sentence, and so on.

Well... These things are not inherent characteristics of hunter-gatherer lifestyle. They were the same until very recently :).
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