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Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

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Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#81

Post by dragonwriter »

MichaelBurge wrote: post #61
throwaway729 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The outcome of this will teach us all very valuable lessons. Lesson #1: Don't steal. > I can't be the only one who is a little paranoid that if I start my own shit I'll be sued or that I may even be sued for some of the side projects I'm working on even though I've never taken any code or resources from my company. Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth. Assuming their acc…

> Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, deny it instead of pleading the fifth What is the clear benefit to denying rather than pleading the fifth? I know from Psychology that telling a jury to disregard information makes it seem more valuable and true, but that's more speculative than what you seem to have seen.

> What is the clear benefit to denying rather than pleading the fifth?

You open yourself up to perjury charges as well as the charges you were trying to protect against with the Fifth, plus you open yourself to unlimited cross-examination and impeachment of your testimony.

Oh, wait, you said benefit.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#83

Post by munificent »

ergothus wrote: post #35
oh_sigh wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, there is no reason to believe that a bad actor would steal 14,000 documents from a previous company, and then on the first day on the job go and upload them to the company git server. If I knew I was being nefarious, I would keep those documents on a completely airgapped computer in a private (non-company) space, only reference them when I was alone, and then bring information into the company only through my b…

I don't disagree with your assessment in general, the problem is that when you take the set of "criminals", and then further drill in to "criminals that actually get accused", you rapidly change the ratio of "clever" to "think-they-are-clever". I'm not saying all criminals are stupid [Edit: stupid, careless, ignorant, poor at prediction, poor at risk calculation, take your pick] ...just that many are. And the really…

> I'm not saying all criminals are stupid [Edit: stupid, careless, ignorant, poor at prediction, poor at risk calculation, take your pick] ...just that many are. And the really clever ones are often able to do it without even getting accused. So you're left with a group that has a LOT of facepalm-inducing members.

Right, it's a classic example of survivorship bias.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#84

Post by munificent »

dmritard96 wrote: post #82

Are there any opensource autonomous/driverless car projects with substantial momentum. This seems like something so foundational to the next 50 to 100 years that it needs to be 'owned' by everyone.

> This seems like something so foundational to the next 50 to 100 years that it needs to be 'owned' by everyone.

This is equally true of climate change and possibly sustainable energy. Unfortunately, our current political and corporate structures don't seem set up to handle it well.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#85

Post by throwaway729 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #76
throwaway729 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if your lawyer tells you to plead the fifth and clam up, don't be surprised when your business receives an injunction. I'm not a lawyer, but Alsup is, and he states as much in an abundantly clear tongue lashing of Uber's lawyers: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo-Uber-3-... Sorry, but I don't buy it. Of course you should talk to lawyers first, just as Levandowski did. But at some point, if you'…

> But at some point, if you're truly innocent, I'm sure the best lawyers in the business could find a way for you to say "I'm not guilty" without hurting yourself. In a perfect world, being actually innocent would mean zero risk of conviction of a crime with a vigorous and dedicated defense, no matter what the prosecution did. We don't live in a perfect world, and it is, in fact, quite possible for a situation to exi…

I agree in principle and understand your point.

But I have a hard time imagining a specific scenario where you're accused of IP theft and a lawyer can't find a way to say "my client is not guilty of IP theft" without compromising their client.

At the very least, at some point, the client is going to have to enter that "not guilty" plea.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#86

Post by michaelt »

ekidd wrote: post #53
YCode wrote: post #3

Offhand, this kind of sounds like a parent asking their teenager to go and search their own room for drugs. "Nah, I didn't find anything. I found this plastic bag that looks like it mighta had something in it, but I'm pretty sure my friend left it here and it was empty when he brought it." "Okay son, go search again."

> Offhand, this kind of sounds like a parent asking their teenager to go and search their own room for drugs. I have expressed this attitude to corporate lawyers before, and asked them how the system deals with bad actors. Basically, if a judge catches you lying during discovery, they can issue a default judgement against you and impose very serious additional damages. For example: http://newenglandinhouse.com/2015/0…

Penalties or no, law firms have certainly participated in covering up illegal behaviour in the past.

For example, during the News International phone hacking scandal [1] a law firm hired by NI participated in the cover-up, providing a sham "internal investigation" and "clean bill of health"

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_International_phone_hacki...

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#87

Post by akiselev »

Animats wrote: post #62

Judge Alsup: "If your guy is involved in criminal activity and has to have criminal lawyers of the caliber of these two gentlemen, who are the best, well, okay they got the best. But it’s a problem I can’t solve for you. And if you think I’m going to cut you some slack because you’re looking at—your guy is looking at jail time, no. They [Waymo] are going to get the benefit of their record. And if you don’t deny it—if…

For those who don't recognize the name, this is the same judge that learned some Java for the Oracle v. Google case (and has an undergrad degree in mathematics). Every time I read his name I know it's going to be a fun ride and the lawyers will not be able to get away with anywhere near as much shenanigans as they usually do. Although his ruling regarding API copyright in the Google case was overturned, he has a really strong record of making judgments that stand the test of appeals.

I vote Alsup for Ginsberg's seat.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#88

Post by M_Grey »

__jal wrote: post #58
nikanj wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again, a large part of Uber's success has been built upon shenanigans. It seems likely that they might develop an arrogance towards the legal system, after years of playing chicken with it.

You can generally predict Uber's behavior by assuming it behaves like a stereotypical frat house. The behavior is: - Go for it and see if anyone complains - See if ignoring the complainers makes them go away - See if bullying the complainers makes them go away - Can it be solved with money? - Last resort: cheat. - If you get caught, call the lawyers; in public, whine about the raw deal you're getting.

Unfortunately for them, the combination of Google alleging massive theft, the issues around Applebaum, and the high profile exit of some of their execs, none of that is likely to work.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#89

Post by joshuamorton »

tajen wrote: post #66
komali2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good, I'm happy he still works there. People should not be fired because of accusations. It opens the door for abuse of the justice system. Let's not fall into the trap of assuming Waymo is the "good guys" and Uber is the "bad guys." Leveling an accusation isn't hard. Anybody can sue anybody as long as you have enough evidence or a good enough argument to convince a judge to hear the case.

I'm happy some people still think like you. The respect for trials was lost at one point in recent history (and I don't know whether the million-dollar coffee and counter-argument explains it [1]), but the theory of justice is that the judge determines what is fair. I'm especially disgusted that so many men lose their jobs upon women's accusations: Without a judge, I can't verify that said men were guilty or just tha…

This argument doesn't follow. Your link explains why frivolous lawsuits are more of a myth than most people believe. You then proceed to lambaste people for people bowing to lawsuits which, your source contends, are probably more reasonable than you think.

Re: Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee’s personal device

#90

Post by defen »

Animats wrote: post #62

Judge Alsup: "If your guy is involved in criminal activity and has to have criminal lawyers of the caliber of these two gentlemen, who are the best, well, okay they got the best. But it’s a problem I can’t solve for you. And if you think I’m going to cut you some slack because you’re looking at—your guy is looking at jail time, no. They [Waymo] are going to get the benefit of their record. And if you don’t deny it—if…

How is Uber supposed to prove that they don't have the files? I'm asking purely from a legal / process perspective - would they have to turn over all their data to discovery, or something? If they legitimately don't have the files, how could they satisfy the judge? Or is it not possible that they don't have the files? What if Levandowski has the files on his home computer or something but they never touched Uber's system?
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