Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 108 posts

Re: We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

#81

Post by zip1234 »

John23832 wrote: post #67
zip1234 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are looking at the past a bit optimistically. First off, many houses in the past were MUCH smaller. I know people of the WWII generation that raised their families in working class Detroit neighborhoods. They were considered middle class but raised a family of 7 in a 900 sq. foot house. Yes they went on vacations, but they drove and didn't go out to eat. They had usually only a single car. My point is tha…

I think one of the problems is that even if you're frugal with your resources, you're barely making it. In the suburbs, two parents with a single car working 9-5 (if you're lucky) is barely sustainable with two young kids. It isn't sustainable when those kids get a little older and have to go off and do their own activities in order to (hopefully) grow into well rounded human beings. In the a major city, transportati…

I agree that the student loan issue is a big problem. If people tried to get a mortgage, they would be required to back the loan somehow and show income that can pay it back. With student loans, there are no such requirements and people can get any kind of degree and take out insane amounts of debt. How can someone that ends up getting $12/hr pay back a 100k student loan and then be able to afford anything else? Also, the houses I was looking at were in Garden City, MI. Not unsafe, not dilapidated, just small houses. Finally, I disagree with the argument that kids need a lot of activities (such as team sports) that they must be driven to and from in order to be well-rounded. There are many paths to being well-rounded.

Re: We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

#82

Post by zip1234 »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #78
zip1234 wrote: post #43

I'm totally onboard with UBI if it is actually needed. The problem is people PROJECTING that it will be needed. In the current world human labor is very much in demand. Maybe people won't be able to use the specific degree that they went to school for but that just means a bit of retraining and/or a bit of mindset shift. If there is a massive outflux of jobs in America, then there are many questions that need to be a…

> In the current world human labor is very much in demand. If this were the case, wages would be rising. Supply and demand is what kept unions around in the 60s, there was enough demand for labor that they could demand higher wages and better treatment. Now due to globalization and other things, the return on labor is incredibly low and still declining.

Wages are rising significantly in the China, India, etc and are catching up. Nobody really knows what will happen once all of the labor that is extremely cheap now is not as cheap. We can conjecture that their will be some upheaval, but nobody really knows what the effects will be.

Re: We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

#83

Post by rhapsodic »

deelowe wrote: post #58
rhapsodic wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Democratic Party, please keep insulting working-class American citizens by calling them vile names. The Republican Party will be happy to receive their votes.

First, I'm a conservative though I lean heavily towards libertarian. That said, who called anyone names? Would you have felt more comfortable with my statement if I had substituted xenophobia for brown people? I don't think racism is as huge a factor as simple scapegoating and opportunism by politicians. The public is being misled and comments like the parent's ignore the very real impact automation is having on soci…

> That said, who called anyone names?

You said:

> while millions of blue collar workers take to blaming brown people for job losses

Which is effectively calling millions of blue collar workers racist.

That is a vile and disgusting and baseless insult which is right out of the playbook of the Democratic party, whether you're a Democrat or not.

And it's also signalling your own virtue to the world. By decrying the racism in others, you're announcing to the world how properly non-racist you are.

This has started to backfire on the Democratic party. Their hectoring and name-calling is not nearly as effective as it used to be. If it were, Clinton would have won in a landslide, because that's the main way she argued against the need to control the US's borders.

I really hope they keep it up though.

Re: We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

#84

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

zip1234 wrote: post #82
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the current world human labor is very much in demand. If this were the case, wages would be rising. Supply and demand is what kept unions around in the 60s, there was enough demand for labor that they could demand higher wages and better treatment. Now due to globalization and other things, the return on labor is incredibly low and still declining.

Wages are rising significantly in the China, India, etc and are catching up. Nobody really knows what will happen once all of the labor that is extremely cheap now is not as cheap. We can conjecture that their will be some upheaval, but nobody really knows what the effects will be.

Wages are rising for them regionally, but the return on labor is lower than it was before. Previously, a laborer working 9-5 could afford a middle class life with a house, car, and nuclear family. Can a laborer in India or China afford that now? I doubt it.

Re: We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

#85

Post by plandis »

DannyB2 wrote: post #80
jbob2000 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And get crushed by drone strikes. The old methods of overthrowing power don't work any more!

Those ordering drone strikes on their own citizens might discover that some significant fraction of drone operators are unwilling to carry out such orders.

This is why you keep the military well off comparatively. Give them a nice incentive and the majority won't turn

Re: We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

#86

Post by crispyambulance »

DannyB2 wrote: post #80
jbob2000 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And get crushed by drone strikes. The old methods of overthrowing power don't work any more!

Those ordering drone strikes on their own citizens might discover that some significant fraction of drone operators are unwilling to carry out such orders.

Keep in mind, however, that civil wars are among the most cruel and vicious of all wars.

The Rwandan genocide was between Tutsi's and Hutu's, the culmination of a long list of beefs the origin of which defies rational explanation.

Not saying that something similar is likely here, but it could happen in time given the right environment and grievances.

Re: We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

#87

Post by loader »

logfromblammo wrote: post #75
daliwali wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>does being born make you worthy of survival? Does the world owe you a living? Most would answer "no". Civilization is often in direct opposition to nature, which is cruel and unforgiving. A civilization in collapse will revert to natural selection, in which the fittest survive and reproduce. I believe that we are witnessing the breakdown of the social contract as the atomic unit of society shifts from the family to…

The world does not owe me a living, but then again, it has no rules that I am bound to obey. Civilization does owe me a living, in exchange for my good conduct. If civilization cannot or will not provide me with my survival needs, I will instead break its laws and prey upon its people and systems to get not just what I need, but also what I want. If your system cannot reasonably accommodate everyone, you will have ou…

I reread this comment like 4 times. I really like the simplicity of it but how profound it is.

I guess we can't be too upset when people don't obey our rules if we aren't providing for their basic survival.

Re: We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

#88

Post by peacetreefrog »

RobertoG wrote: post #71
peacetreefrog wrote: post #12

this guy needs a little more humility. as dan boudreaux writes: "It’s called “history.” Since humans first controlled fire and carved arrows, history is a long tale of the invention and use of labor-saving techniques and devices. Domestication of oxen and horses. Pulleys. Levers. Irrigation channels. Metal saws. The printing press. Concrete. The wheel. All save labor, yet none has led to permanent increases in unempl…

There are strong arguments in the "this time is different" side. When jobs are lost because technology, the new jobs are created in fields where technology can't compete. Until now that was intellectual work.

To me, it's a lack of imagination -- not the ability to imagine the kinds of work people will be doing in 100 years (which is very difficult), but the lack of empathy/ability to get out of the here and now. In 1800's over half of US workers were in agriculture, today it's under 2%. If you were to tell a farmer that in 1900 they'd freak out, very similarly to how this guy's freaking out today.

Re: We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

#89

Post by yummyfajitas »

gjem97 wrote: post #72
yummyfajitas wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 1 year old nephew also owns more than all the people with debt > assets combined. 3 billion x negative number Such a crisis of capitalism.

Globally, how many people have net debt? I bet it's fewer than you think.

Lots. http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2014/04/04/stop-adding...

Re: We Need a New Deal to Address the Economic Risks of Automation

#90

Post by John23832 »

zip1234 wrote: post #81
John23832 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the problems is that even if you're frugal with your resources, you're barely making it. In the suburbs, two parents with a single car working 9-5 (if you're lucky) is barely sustainable with two young kids. It isn't sustainable when those kids get a little older and have to go off and do their own activities in order to (hopefully) grow into well rounded human beings. In the a major city, transportati…

I agree that the student loan issue is a big problem. If people tried to get a mortgage, they would be required to back the loan somehow and show income that can pay it back. With student loans, there are no such requirements and people can get any kind of degree and take out insane amounts of debt. How can someone that ends up getting $12/hr pay back a 100k student loan and then be able to afford anything else? Also…

Regardless of how you enrich your kids, staying in the house without outside interaction isn't optimal. I just think that transportation is a need, and in suburban sprawl, walking doesn't cut it. When multiple people in the household need transportation, but you have two (or less) drivers, who have responsibilities of their own... I think you see where I'm going.

Also let's not get into the fact that it's "frowned upon" to have kids "wander" by themselves now.

Post reply on HN