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Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

theatlantic.com

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Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#81

Post by watwut »

Mendenhall wrote: post #54
st3v3r wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what they're trying to do. But I'm getting really, really, really tired of people conflating the "other side" stuff with the trolling stuff. Look at all the stuff sent to Leslie Jones last summer. Do you honestly think that was meant to be a dialog? Of course not. That was trolling. That was harassment. And that is what people are trying to filter out.

If i say "leslie jones sucks" am I trolling or do I think she actually sucks at her job. If a million people one after another go on leslie jones profile and say "leslie is a horrible actress" is that trolling ? harrassment ? If someone says "Trump sucks" should they be filtered out ? Do I think its a dialogue, heck no. Do I think it should be filtered, double heck no.

If you send her dick pics, dead animals pics or photos of apes with "this is how you look like" under it, all that from hundreds of different accounts so that she can not effectively filter it, then yeah, you are trolling and harassing.

Likewise, if you flood someone employer customers with the above material to get him or her fired, you are harassing.

Let's not pretend this was just about "slightly impolite words". Or misunderstood dialog.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#82

Post by ElatedOwl »

michaelchisari wrote: post #70
ElatedOwl wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linguistics aside I think we're in agreement. :) The article doesn't outright define trolling, but gets pretty close with: >humans like trolling. It’s easy for people to stay anonymous while they harass, pester, and bully other people online All I'm getting at is, people being assholes on the internet isn't a real problem compared to the astroturfing and forum sliding that goes on.

I guess where we're in disagreement, though, and this is something that was in discussion at the senate hearings in terms of "unwitting agents" or put less delicately, "useful idiots" that will follow along with dangerous patterns that might have their source in extremely negative astroturfing/forum-sliding/shilling, but which take on a life of their own. We have clear evidence that disinformation campaigns and activ…

>I guess where we're in disagreement, though, [...] "useful idiots" that will follow along with dangerous patterns that might have their source in extremely negative astroturfing/forum-sliding/shilling, but which take on a life of their own.

I'm not sure where the disagreement is; gaining sincere support is the whole point. Shills spread plenty of false anti-bernie things.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#83

Post by mybrid »

I think the scope of this trolling concern needs to be expanded to include the latest science on confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance.

The fake news of Hillary running a child prostitution ring out of a pizza parlor is an example of where people are creating protected spaces for confirmation bias online. Such a story is ludicrous. After Trump won the alt-right created a coded language where common words are substituted for slurs. It is human nature for birds of a feather to flock together and part of this includes creating a negative environment to weed out all but the most dedicated. This human behavior can be found at executive levels at Fortune 500 companies where cussing and swearing not allowed at the employee level represent barriers for people, most notably women, who don't appreciate the troll, obnoxious behavior. It is well known that climbing the corporate ladder requires an ever increasing capacity to put up with caustic trolling behavior.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#85

Post by watwut »

st3v3r wrote: post #28
KaiserPro wrote: post #7

Sigh The Trolls have been with the internet from the start. I would say that actually they are mostly contained (why? because its really fucking difficult to be anonymous. Plus you are more than likely to be prosecuted for whatever you've done) So whats changed? more people are on platforms like twitter, and seem to think that fake internet points are real. The vast majority of "trolling" is pretty low grade "die", "…

I'm sorry, but this "ignore the trolls" meme has been proven wrong time and again these past few years. It's not a solution.

Ignore trolls work when they are motivated by attention. It does not work when they hate your guts and seek to harm you however they can.

That is like saying "just igore bullies" to bullied kid. It does not work.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#86

Post by 0xCMP »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #73
jknoepfler wrote: post #67

I don't understand this article at all. I participate in two large professional forums (one for poker, one for development). The professionals are winning the internet there. There are dedicated subforums for trolls and random bs, which are pretty funny sometimes, but serve as an outlet for the garbage. I browse hacker news... It is what it is, I'm happy with it as a content sharing platform. My biggest gripe is the…

You're in the top 1% or 0.1% of filtering for quality, IMO. Go spend some "quality time" on /r/the_donald for a more typical experience.

Vote with your feet/filter/time. Don't go to to /r/the_donald.

I just use HN and twitter mainly. I keep Facebook because many friends can only be kept in touch with (out of the blue) via facebook. Otherwise, just block a lot of it.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#87

Post by Goronmon »

coldtea wrote: post #64
Goronmon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we define "troll" as anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressive, insulting, false, or otherwise unproductive content, then the entire class of authors of the genre of news article decrying trolling and harassment are themselves trolls. Isn't that a bit of a tautology? "If I expand the definition of the word 'troll' to include 'authors decrying trolling' then authors who decry trolling become '…

> Isn't that a bit of a tautology? "If I expand the definition of the word 'troll' to include 'authors decrying trolling' then authors who decry trolling become 'trolls' themselves." No, it's not tautological. The parent doesn't propose to "expand the definition of the word 'troll' to include 'authors decrying trolling'". He proposes defining trolls as "as anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressi…

The parent doesn't propose to "expand the definition of the word 'troll' to include 'authors decrying trolling'". He proposes defining trolls as "as anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressive, insulting, false, or otherwise unproductive content".

If you assume that the word troll does not mean "anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressive, insulting, false, or otherwise unproductive content" then someone claiming it does is pretty clearly expanding the definition of the word.

Which is as (or close) to how it has always been defined, and how the authors of TFA use it.

I actually disagree with both of these assertions. Sometimes people expand the word troll to encompass too large a group, but that doesn't necessarily change the definition and I definitely don't see how the article uses it in that manner.

Though, I can definitely understand the desire to expand the definition of the word 'troll' into usefulness. It does make it easier to dismiss other's complaints.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#88

Post by cf »

czep wrote: post #30
wvenable wrote: post #13

The real problem is that bytes are effectively free. Here I am, using up your bytes right now. Using up the bytes on Hacker news. The only limit is my own time, effort, and energy. You think this means that we're all equal; we all have equal access to sharing bytes. But the problem is that trolls have infinite time and energy to post bytes. They have significantly more power and influence than you do because of that…

What are some good tips for controlling or at least mitigating trolling on sites that depend on user generated content? Moderation, flagging, downvoting, IP address rate limits, keyword blacklisting, are these effective?

Anil Dash actually wrote a great article about this. The short summary is you need real humans doing the moderating. All the tooling you create should be about enhancing those humans.

http://anildash.com/2011/07/if-your-websites-full-of-asshole...

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#89

Post by reitanqild »

Edmond wrote: post #59
pcmaffey wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that identity is the basis for most trolling, I'd say identity is a poor proxy for trust. Despite what Facebook and the CIA / NSA may want us to believe, there's no evidence that a lack of anonymity/privacy leads to greater accountability.

Identity can prevent abuse if it can be used as an effective way to keep the trolls out. In the real world if you know behaving badly can get you permanently banned from a place you'd like to have access to, that keeps you in check. Similarly if it was possible for service providers to effectively penalize (from suspension to permanent banning) abusers in a way that they can't easily circumvent (ie create a new accou…

Problem is the current system is the worst of both worlds: spammers will continue to create new fake accounts.

Honest people get shut up - or outed.

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