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The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

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Re: The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > And no, the sales and marketing in that article is not advertising alone. It's mostly sales people who go and visit medical professionals to talk about their products. > That's advertising. It's also keeping physicians up to date on the current science, applicability, and best practices of their products. I think it's a good thing for sales reps and MSLs to inform or remind physicians that there are alternatives…

> It's also keeping physicians up to date on the current science, applicability, and best practices of their products. I think it's a good thing for sales reps and MSLs to inform or remind physicians that there are alternatives to writing a script for Epipens, for example. There are many very cheap ways of keeping physicians up-to date, such as a conference presentation of the drug, followed by a Q&A session, with a…

> There are many very cheap ways of keeping physicians up-to date, such as a conference presentation of the drug, followed by a Q&A session, with a recording freely available online.

Because most doctors are happy to spend hours watching recordings of drug presentations.

For better or worse, doctors are just people and if you want them to understand the benefits of your new drug, it will fall to you to convince them. Most doctors are not going to thoroughly study every new drug.

Re: The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

#82

Interesting takeaway: going forward I'll always ask the pharmacy if paying out of pocket would actually be cheaper than using my insurance and paying a copay.

Some pharmacies already compare the prices, actually, and when the drug is cheaper than your copay, you just pay the lower amount. At least the pharmacies I've been to in Indiana were like that (CVS mostly, but sometimes Walgreen's).

Re: The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

#83

I deal with Express Scripts and CVS Caremark. I have Hemophilia, a bleeding disorder condition I've been born with. By far, these are the most corrupt organizations in the medical/drug industry. At least the phrama companies actually make something at the end of the day and do research, and employ more than just business people. I am forced by whatever insurance plan I have, to deal with these companies directly beca…

So I read this and I'm horrified. And I know that no one in the coming years will make this or anything like it a priority in Congress. They give no shits about us. The media spends all day talking about tweets and Russian influence in our election and on our newly minted government officials. Yeah, the latter is important, but health care is really, really important. It's the reason our new POTUS was elected, according to the post-mortums I've seen. NOTHING WILL BE DONE (that is good for the people, things might be done that will be great for businesses).

Re: The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

#84

> Americans pay the highest health-care prices in the world, including the highest for drugs, medical devices, and other health-care services and products. Our fragmented system produces many opportunities for excessive charges. But one lesser-known reason for those high prices is the stranglehold that a few giant intermediaries have secured over distribution. The antitrust laws are supposed to provide protection aga…

As I and other have mentioned before, the easiest way to fix this would be to permit re-importing drugs that were manufactured within the US.

The easiest way to fix this is to have cost controls like every other 1st-world country in the world on drugs and medical procedures. Unfortunately, this is treasonous to Republicans and Democrats are spineless. The current system will be upheld until people get fed up enough to vote for real change.

Re: The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

#85
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but there are also many drugs on the market which are barely better than a placebo, or even more harmful than no medication. However, they are still prescribed and billed for as if they are effective.

Have any examples? The FDA won't approve a drug unless safety and efficacy have been proven.

Over the counter cough syrup is a weird category. It is an old drug, and some of the studies are mixed. The FDA regulations weren't the same back then, and so it still has the approval. It has some issues when kids take a whole bottle, which means some places restrict its sale - but overall, it hasn't proved harmful to folks either.

Cough drops are another one. There isn't much evidence they make you breathe better, yet people report that they do. They think this is likely due to the reaction menthol has on mucus membranes - it feels cool on the air one is breathing so they feel their breath. Yet, menthol is considered a drug and as such, it must have an FDA approval.

Edit: I know these aren't prescription, but they were the first ones I thought of.

Re: The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

#86
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proportionately to their revenue, pharma doesn't spend that much on R&D: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/11/big-p... And that's just compared to advertising - throw in other overhead, and separate R&D into genuinely new drugs vs. generics and flavoured aspirin, and the numbers are even worse. Of course it's hard to get such comprehensive financial data, but that's just one of the advantages of pri…

Drug companies spend the most on R&D out of any industry. The average is almost 20% of revenue. That means if you buy a drug for $1000, $200 of that goes back into R&D. And no, the sales and marketing in that article is not advertising alone. It's mostly sales people who go and visit medical professionals to talk about their products.

Someone had just posted a really useful post that was deleted about 15 minutes later. Here is the post copy/pasted in its entirety:

EDIT: Wall of Text warning.

>The average is almost 20% of revenue.

This isn't exactly true. In fact the pharma industry lies so prodigously about it's own costs that it's almost impossible to know what they actually are spending on R&D. We can trace back the source of these numbers to various PhRMA reports like this one:

http://www.phrma.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2015_phrma_prof....

Which gives us this:

PERCENTAGE OF SALES THAT WENT TO R&D IN 2013

Domestic R&D as a percentage of domestic sales = 23.4%

Total R&D as a percentage of total sales = 17.9%

which basically supports your point. Their methodology though is quite interesting.

>In 1991, Joseph DiMasi and colleagues from the Tufts Center for the Study of Drug Development published a widely quoted, comprehensive study of drug development costs. Using project data from confidential surveys, the study estimated cash outlays of around $169M to successfully bring a drug to market during a period beginning in the 1970s. PhRMA relies on this research as the foundation for their statements about the cost of drug development. However, PhRMA uses different assumptions about a "hidden" expense called "opportunity cost" that boosts this estimate to the $500 million mark.

>PhRMA's assumptions begin with DiMasi's original estimate of R&D outlays with opportunity cost set at 9% and a 12-year development period. A review of the Tufts study performed by the US Office of Technology Assessment (OTA) subsequently calculated opportunity cost at a higher rate, which pushed the estimate towards $360 million. According to Public Citizen, this figure, when adjusted for inflation and rounded up, became PhRMA's $500 million.

>But Public Citizen says the OTA report also offers an alternative analysis of development costs. R&D expenses are tax deductible, but DiMasi's 1991 figures didn't consider the discount this offers. If the original Tufts estimate is reduced by 34% in tax savings and opportunity cost is subtracted, Public Citizen says the actual cash outlay for bringing a new drug to market during the seventies and eighties was actually closer to $65 million.

http://www.thebody.com/content/art13514.html

Furthermore:

>Notably, as in the Center's previous estimates, nearly half the cost of drug development was accounted for not by research expenditures but by the cost of capital. The analysts justified that assumption by noting that during the years a company spends developing a new product, it incurs opportunity costs by not using those dollars for other purposes. That argument is plausible, and such calculations can be an appropriate component of such analyses. However, nearly half the total cost of developing a new drug ($1.2 billion) was ascribed to this cost of capital, with only $1.4 billion attributed to funds actually spent on research. These capital costs were assessed at 10.6% per year, compounded — despite the fact that bonds issued by drug companies often pay only 1 to 5%.

>The Tufts calculations also explicitly do not take into account the large public subsidies provided to pharmaceutical companies in the form of research-and-development tax credits or substantial payments received from the federal government for other research activities, such as testing their products in children. Perhaps most important, because the calculations are based only on products that the companies described as “self-originated,” the $2.6 billion figure does not consider drug-development costs borne by the public for the large number of medications that are based on external research that elucidated the disease mechanisms they address. One recent analysis showed that more than half of the most transformative drugs developed in recent decades had their origins in publicly funded research at nonprofit, university-affiliated centers.4

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1500848#t=article

Now this is obviously just absurd. These R&D numbers are totally meaningless! They've been biased at literally every step of the process to be shown as larger than they really are.

Re: The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

#87
post #64
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your comment you suggest that most of the profits of pharma companies go into R&D but that's not the case. There's a lot of rent seeking behavior by these companies due to poor legislation. This kind of behavior (incentives/"conferences" for physicians, lobbying, etc.) shows up under sales in their annual reports and it's clear they spend a lot more on it than on R&D: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/20…

So that's an article on how pharma companies spend more on sales and marketing than research. But many companies we'd consider "innovative" spend about twice as much on SG&A (sales, general, and administrative) as on R&D. For 2014-2015, the ratio between R&D spending and SG&A spending is 0.59 at Pfizer, 0.75 at Google, 0.56 at AstraZeneca, 0.43 at Apple, and 0.58 at Microsoft.

I'm skeptical that pharma companies should require equally high levels of marketing spending as other industries. After all most expensive pharmaceutical products are bought through an expert (ie. your physician). There's not a huge discoverability problem to be solved for those companies - or at least there shouldn't be - after all there's a national drug directory run by the FDA. Furthermore the US is one of only two countries where companies can advertise for drugs which require prescriptions.

Re: The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And no, the sales and marketing in that article is not advertising alone. It's mostly sales people who go and visit medical professionals to talk about their products. That's advertising. You mentioned 20% of their revenue is R&D - do you have a source, ideally listing what the other 80% goes to? That's a lot of unaccounted revenue, especially given how many drugs were shown to be dirt cheap to manufacture.

> > And no, the sales and marketing in that article is not advertising alone. It's mostly sales people who go and visit medical professionals to talk about their products. > That's advertising. It's also keeping physicians up to date on the current science, applicability, and best practices of their products. I think it's a good thing for sales reps and MSLs to inform or remind physicians that there are alternatives…

AWS keeps me up to date with their products and best practices too... It's still advertising.

Re: The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

#89
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but there are also many drugs on the market which are barely better than a placebo, or even more harmful than no medication. However, they are still prescribed and billed for as if they are effective.

Have any examples? The FDA won't approve a drug unless safety and efficacy have been proven.

Unfortunately that process is a lot more complex than one might think, like everything else involving medicine, government, or even worse, a combination of the two. Safety and efficacy are not a binary condition, either.

Questions you might ask are, how effective does a drug have to be to be approved? Is it better to have false positives or false negatives? Who pays for and conducts the studies, and who reviews them? How many FDA officials used to work for or lobby for the companies they are regulating?

There are many drugs withdrawn for the reasons I mentioned - ineffectiveness or harm. While I don't personally maintain a handy list of links to articles about this topic, this list contains many drugs that were withdrawn from the market for the reasons mentioned: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs

First thing I clicked on: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoprofen Withdrawn for causing severe gastrointestinal bleeding

Re: The Hidden Monopolies That Raise Drug Prices

#90
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With free trade, another country is still free to subsidize the goods that it imports from the US, but with the knowledge that they'll be subsidizing whatever portion of Americans choose to reimport those drugs at the subsidized prices. But that's the whole problem. Canada presumably doesn't want to subsidize U.S. citizens. The whole point is to provide a benefit for their own citizens. If Canada subsidizes a popul…

> But that's the whole problem. Canada presumably doesn't want to subsidize U.S. citizens. Well, right now the US is effectively subsidizing Canadians, because the US is funding the majority of the pharmaceutical research that produces the drugs they consume. Half of the entire world's funding for pharmaceutical research comes from the US. A large chunk of that is funded by earnings on pharmaceutical sales[0][1]. > I…

> I don't understand what you mean by "resist".

Resists changing the price in the country that is imported into.

Let's consider this hypothetical scenario. A popular drug is sold for $100 in the U.S., but the Canadian government subsidizes it to the degree that Canadians pay $50 for it (and Canada has negotiated a price of $80). The drug can by and is imported into the U.S. and sold for $60.

There is no incentive for the manufacturer to lower the price. Even if they lower it to $80, they are losing out on some purchases who choose to buy at the higher price. They either make $80 or $100 depending on where they sold, but for ever unit that is imported, Canada is losing $30, which is partially going to subsidize the price for U.S. citizens, and partially to import/export costs.

With open export regulations on drugs, there is effectively no way to subsidize a drug for your own citizens without subsidizing it for others where it is lower than another country that allows importation as long as the combined import fees and subsidized cost are not more than the cost in the importing country.

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