Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#81

Post by heurist » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:05 PM UTC

monkmartinez wrote: post #18

I am naive... however, some opinions... If the startup is truly revolutionary|innovative, shouldn't we see VC's pounding down the doors to give them money? If they have money, shouldn't they spend that on their personnel (assuming they are not manufacturing robots or something) if we are talking software? Seems to me that startups want to have their cake and eat it too. If you have money to pay, then pay competitive…

No, VCs are fallible and don't always recognize opportunity. They may not trust that it can be delivered. They might be hedging their bets for whatever reason. Having a good product is no guarantee of significant funding.

Most startups, even potential game-changers, only have a limited amount of cash on hand and need to make it stretch as far as possible. You're thinking about the unicorn case which is so rare as to be a joke.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#82

Post by 086421357909764 » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:05 PM UTC

znq wrote: post #75

RamshackleJ wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always curious about companies who talk about "caring about things other than just money". Maybe I'm missing somethings but if you are a for-profit company by definition you care about money, any claims other wise feel like marketing.

Never said we don't care about money. But we care also about other things than just money. And that a lot more than most other for-profit companies out there. There's nothing wrong with making a profit either. The more profit we make the better. But it's important to decide what you do with that profit. And I much rather pay for our employees to join me for a week of skiing in the Alps than buying myself a Ferrari. I…

This is the right approach. Build a business you want to work at and your employees want to work at. Focus on maintaining operating costs and expenses, everything else is gravy. The buy in and work output isn't necessarily greater or worse than others, but I would argue the quality of life is through the roof. Kudos on what you're doing.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#83

Post by AlexC04 » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:06 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #25

inputcoffee wrote: post #20

Here are some options, but notice how controversial they are: 1. Employ younger, inexperienced people and train them 2. Import immigrant developers 3. Hire people in different geographies As an alternative, why not: 1. Hire older workers 2. Hire the unemployed American workers 3. Hire in America? Well, because it costs more? Does it? I don't know, I am just trying to open up the conversation here. Edit: made language…

We have had high success with #1.

now are you referring to #1 (younger + training) or #1 (older)?

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#84

Post by tonfa » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:07 PM UTC

awalton wrote: post #43

The "Google compensation package" (not Salary) is making it a realistic option for Google employees to buy homes in the Bay Area after a few years of work. (Unfortunately thereafter, the RSU pyramid makes it really hard to leave Google, since you'd be giving up a virtual fortune, shimmering off in the distance like a mirage...) Your startups... aren't doing any of that. Most of them pay shit-all for equity and salary…

> Unfortunately thereafter, the RSU pyramid makes it really hard to leave Google, since you'd be giving up a virtual fortune, shimmering off in the distance like a mirage...

Never understood that argument, how is it different from your base salary, isn't it a similar mirage? Per year you get XX USD in RSUs vesting, you don't have to consider granted RSUs as being "yours".

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#85

Post by phil21 » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:07 PM UTC

AlexC04 wrote: post #63

zerr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as mid-career engineers who don't have a time nor willingness to prepare for CS-riddle based interviews.

Ugghh... this exactly. I recently turned down a "we will fly you to the west coast" interview with one of the big five because I couldn't be bear the idea of spending weeks preparing for the 4-8 hour day of whiteboard coding (only to not get selected anyways). Spent the time hanging out with my girlfriend instead. Worth every minute.

I think you almost played this right, with one caveat. You should have taken the flight to the west coast and done the interview, with minimal (hour or two) to no prep at all.

Why? First, you never know. Maybe they legitimately want your skillset - why fake up some crap you hate for a job you don't need? Second, you'll get practice taking interviews in a very low pressure situation. Worst-case they laugh at you and you fly home. Best-case you get an unexpected job offer you can evaluate. Either way you got some practice and "game time" with the process so if you're ever in a more high pressure situation (e.g. you really need the job) it's a lot easier.

Plus, smart people meeting other smart people is never a bad thing.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#86

Post by deepGem » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:08 PM UTC

jasim wrote: post #47

throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

You'll get programmers from developing countries with a good 10 years on them for $70k if you can build a company around a completely async remote culture. And I'm not talking about fad-following framework-crazed devs, but rugged pros who'll cost a premium if they were in a developed country.

I can attest to this. A good dev in India with 10 years exp will cost about 40 lakhs - about $60K. You gotta keep in mind the ridiculous inflation in India and the rest of the developing world. So in like 2 years you could be paying at least 30% more.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#87

Post by mavelikara » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:08 PM UTC

thr0waway1239 wrote: post #58

krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

Also, almost certainly, you don't want to hire engineers after they end up working at one of the tech giants, and the more experienced they are the worse. Having had the unfortunate experience of working along side some of the 'veterans' of one of these tech giants, it was a little disconcerting how easily they would form cliques based on perceived 'proven vs unproven' folks - if you hadn't worked at one of the tech…

The cliques are not the fault of the engineers from Big Co - it is the fault of your management who perceives them as "proven" and you as "unproven".

This is a self-perpetuating thing too, when most of the promotions go to people from the "proven" cliques, and those who got promoted, promote more of their "proven" brethren.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#88

Post by throwaway2016a » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:09 PM UTC

meddlepal wrote: post #46

throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

Have you considered alternative comp mechanics? For example, I know it may sound unorthodox, but short work weeks is an awesome perk and worth a lot IMO. Other things like guaranteeing to ship engineers off to a conference per quarter of their choice and paying for a day and night of travel expenses + a day off so they can explore the destination is pretty cool too. How does your company handle IP assignment also for…

We have flex hours. We've toyed with short work weeks but it hasn't taken off (yet).

We do have the typical stocked fridge and beer and foosball. But so does everyone else.

We've actually found that given the choice between a perk and more money, people almost always take the money up to about $100k. After that priorities change.

> How does your company handle IP assignment also for personal projects? If I can work on side projects freely without worrying about legal junk that weighs heavily into a decision.

Our CEO and myself are vigorously debating this one :)

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#89

Post by deedubaya » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:09 PM UTC

Every founding team wants the _best_ engineers to build their CRUD app.

Maybe top talent is a requirement for some startups, but most won't make it or break because they've got the very best engineers. Or even the next tier down. Or even one tier below.

The vast majority of startups need a few engineers (usually only one) who have been around the block and know what pitfalls to avoid. The bulk of the team should be mid or junior level to do the grunt work.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#90

Post by tibbon » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 3:10 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

Ooof, those rates are indeed pretty low. I get why you're doing it, but could having access to more engineers easier maybe help get you to profitability faster? I find interviewing a bunch of good people, making offers and then having them turn down the position because of money to be a big waste of time/money. How many hours/dollars do you spend in that 6 months?

I had students leaving my classes at General Assembly in 2014 start between 50-90k, with a pretty good bell curve between. I think the market has gotten tougher for them since then, but whenever a strong student got an offer for 50k I told them to push for 65k.

I'm a senior engineer at my current startup, live in the Boston area and yea... a 90k salary would have me turning down the position likely, unless you had some really good benefits. I'm trying to think creatively about benefits that would make me consider a 90k salary. If you were able to get some bulk rates (making it cheaper than just paying more $) for employees, and paid for things like: laundry service, some amount of Uber credit per month, parking, crossfit membership, phone plans, tax preparation, auto insurance, etc... that could perhaps entice me. Find the pain points in my life and help me fix them.

Perhaps this is just the state of health insurance, but I've been finding my health insurance getting worse and worse too; and even with a 'decent' PPO, I find myself getting random bills for junk the insurance wouldn't cover. Some type of employer-filled reimbursement/savings plan would help there. I don't think I ever got a medical bill 10 years ago.

The #1 thing that could entice me, over salary, would be some way for my employer to help me secure a decent mortgage and help with the down payment. I'd like to buy around Boston, but 20% down payment on $600k is a kick in the teeth (I'm aware you can do lower, but then there's PMI and such). If an employer helped me secure that, and make part of the down payment... as long as the salary paid my mortgage / student loans / food, then I'd be happy camper for a while and not complain about what the technical income number was.