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Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

theintercept.com

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Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#81

Post by youdontknowtho »

johngalt wrote: post #63
youdontknowtho wrote: post #37

It's a mistake to empower and legitimize the right. Rand Paul is an extremist on issues of life and limb. Just because he's "good" on this issue doesn't change that. In fact, it makes it more likely that he will be afforded the position of a moderate because he went against his party on this issue, when he is just as extreme as anyone in his party on any others. It is something that Democrats will need to understand…

> You have to deny them victories, even on issues that you support. And then the right does the same, and nothing ever gets done in the Legislature. Now any real progress needs to be made by the judiciary or by executive fiat. "Let us not seek the Republican answer or the Democratic answer, but the right answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future." -JFK

Listen up captain purity... there are two parties in our system. You have to deal with them to actually make change. Its easy to reply with a quote that seems to make you out to be more moral.

How do you get anything changed then? Riddle me this... the right has been doing what I said for decades now and they Have been successful. should we not try to be successful as well? Of more accurately, what is it about the republican party that makes you think that you can work with them?

EDIT: I didn't see your username until after I replied. Never mind. Lets build a market for organs instead.... then well all have jetpacks.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#82

Post by thrillgore »

Darthy wrote: post #8

Of course the other 7.2 billion people in the world are also routinely monitored, but since this is an action on foreign territory, these 7.2 billion people have no recourse against this practice.

They could declare war on the US.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#83

Post by youdontknowtho »

Bartweiss wrote: post #49
guelo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a Democrat/Republican issue. Obama and Bush both expanded these programs with their party's blessing. There are pockets of civil liberty defenders in both parties.

It should have become pretty clear that this wasn't partisan when an outgoing Obama helped ramp up surveillance in full knowledge of who was next. Seeing people treat this as a D/R fight when Udall and Feinstein are viciously opposed to one another is bizarre to me.

Jesus Christ. Who do you think you can influence? Do you honestly believe that you can sway enough republicans to get anything important done?

People who don't see the republicans for what they are is pretty bizarre to me. We have a two party system. Which one do you think you could have an impact on?

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#84

Post by wfo »

datatan wrote: post #58
nerdponx wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't we been spying on our own citizens since WWII? Or at least since J Edgar Hoover and thr McCarthy era?

McCarthy didn't spy on anyone. He was a Senator not an intel agent. Additionally, McCarthy has been proven right. His estimate was that there were around 20 Soviet agents that had infiltrated the US government at the highest levels. Once the USSR fell and their documents became public it was proven they had well over 200. McCarthy was right but people still tarnish his name out of spite. Hoover was an SOB far worse t…

McCarthy's name isn't being tarnished out of spite. It's because he started a disgusting witch hunt with blacklists, demagoguery, etc to hunt down anyone who committed thoughtcrime (i.e. communist sympathy) that ruined the lives of many, many innocent people and turned the country down a very dark path.

The fact that there were soviet agents in the government is mostly tangential. It was because he went around saying there's a secret list of enemies, and that anyone who is left of center is probably one of them, that he was so horrible. It was because he made disgusting personal attacks and aired the dirty laundry of anyone who crossed him. It was because of his deep hatred for homosexuals and anyone who wasn't right wing.

He was one of the more vile characters in US history. J. Edgar Hoover was much worse, I'll concede; Hoover was actually a traitor, the worst in US history, and should have been jailed or executed. But McCarthy deserves every bit of tarnishing he gets, and a whole lot more that he doesn't get because people have forgotten.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#85

Post by mason240 »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #53
grandalf wrote: post #43

While this article offers the clearest presentation of the issue I've seen to date, I think the key point (which the article points out halfway in) is that the truth of Trump's claim that he was wiretapped does not depend on the presence or absence of a FISA warrant. The system is designed to be used without warrant, so those harping on the detail of whether or not a warrant existed that had Trump in scope are not fo…

> It would be nice if all surveillance could be traced back to FISA warrants, but Snowden's revelations make it clear this is absolutely not the case You mean, since the NSA collects data on millions of Americans? If that's the type of monitoring you mean, Trump's complaint holds no more water than an average Joe claiming "Obama ordered a wiretap on me". More like, "Obama continued policy begun by previous administra…

It's extremely disingenuous to characterize his role as "continued policy begun by previous administration" when his Vice President wrote the core legislation of the Patriot Act, he was actively working to expand those policies for 8 years, and one of his very last acts was to issue an EO further entrenching them.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#86

Post by [deleted] »

datatan wrote: post #58
nerdponx wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't we been spying on our own citizens since WWII? Or at least since J Edgar Hoover and thr McCarthy era?

McCarthy didn't spy on anyone. He was a Senator not an intel agent. Additionally, McCarthy has been proven right. His estimate was that there were around 20 Soviet agents that had infiltrated the US government at the highest levels. Once the USSR fell and their documents became public it was proven they had well over 200. McCarthy was right but people still tarnish his name out of spite. Hoover was an SOB far worse t…

[deleted]

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#87

Post by youdontknowtho »

datatan wrote: post #65
youdontknowtho wrote: post #37

It's a mistake to empower and legitimize the right. Rand Paul is an extremist on issues of life and limb. Just because he's "good" on this issue doesn't change that. In fact, it makes it more likely that he will be afforded the position of a moderate because he went against his party on this issue, when he is just as extreme as anyone in his party on any others. It is something that Democrats will need to understand…

And this right here is why reasonable debate has died in the world today. Put your country before your party or you're damned to lose both.

Great. Another half thought out cliché. That really helps. Thanks.

Meanwhile the Republicans have been focused and disciplined for decades on policies that screw everyone but a few. The democrats are corrupt, but you can work with corrupt. The republicans have a well financed ideology machine that polices itself for dissention. Hopefully your trite cliché will disarm them and convince them that your aren't a pointy headed elite intellectual to be scorned and derided.

If you think the two parties are the same, then you haven't looked closely enough.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#88

Post by ComradeTaco »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #53
grandalf wrote: post #43

While this article offers the clearest presentation of the issue I've seen to date, I think the key point (which the article points out halfway in) is that the truth of Trump's claim that he was wiretapped does not depend on the presence or absence of a FISA warrant. The system is designed to be used without warrant, so those harping on the detail of whether or not a warrant existed that had Trump in scope are not fo…

> It would be nice if all surveillance could be traced back to FISA warrants, but Snowden's revelations make it clear this is absolutely not the case You mean, since the NSA collects data on millions of Americans? If that's the type of monitoring you mean, Trump's complaint holds no more water than an average Joe claiming "Obama ordered a wiretap on me". More like, "Obama continued policy begun by previous administra…

Trump is amusing. He'll say something absolutely obscene, then his surrogates will say that he meant something different and slightly less obscene. Then supporters will go to great lengths to translate his words into an extremely favorable reading that actually isn't obscene at all.

We don't need a Rosetta Stone for it. Trump means exactly what he says.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#89

Post by mirimir »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #76
mirimir wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not that hard. Mumble works quite well in TCP mode, via Tor onion service. That gives you end-to-end encryption plus some anonymity. Except for the voiceprint issue, anyway. And you get cellular-level sound quality. Latency isn't problematic if you run in press-to-transmit mode.

Mumble is not end to end encryption, at least if the setup isnt one of a party of two running a server.

It's easy to run your own server in Whonix. Friends can run clients in Whonix.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#90

Post by youdontknowtho »

Bartweiss wrote: post #47
youdontknowtho wrote: post #37

It's a mistake to empower and legitimize the right. Rand Paul is an extremist on issues of life and limb. Just because he's "good" on this issue doesn't change that. In fact, it makes it more likely that he will be afforded the position of a moderate because he went against his party on this issue, when he is just as extreme as anyone in his party on any others. It is something that Democrats will need to understand…

> Just because he's "good" on this issue doesn't change that... You have to deny them victories, even on issues that you support I understand this argument when it's something like a good stance on education, with bad stances on abortion and the environment. There are lots of people on the left who would share that education stance, and they should be championed instead. But that's really, really not the case on surv…

It means primary Feinstein from the left. Even if you lose you will have scared her. It means you don't surrender the issue. It means that you use this as an opportunity to hit Paul on the issues he's bad on. You thank him for making sense for once and the point out how he's opposed to the voting rights act. I'm not saying that we should be soft on democrats. I'm saying that they are the only party that doesn't actively portray you as a villain to their base. Forcing them left and forcing them to take the correct stand on issues is the only choice.
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