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How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

theintercept.com

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Re: How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

#81

Post by new299 »

api wrote: post #54
otalp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he's a traditional American libertarian. If you read his book Zero To One, he states that he thinks a fundamental truth that most people don't realize is that improving technology is more important than globalization for the human race, which is fine, but that leads him to the conclusion that things like welfare and tax increases are an abomination holding back progress, which makes him against both. I…

That's a little bit of an oversimplification. Thiel thinks that globalization of development without massive technological advancement will lead to a kind of slow Malthusian catastrophe since current technology (fossil fuel energy systems, slow transit, inefficient power grids, etc.) cannot possibly support the entire human race at a modern developed world standard of living. I don't agree with everything Peter think…

I'm not going to say it's false. But I've love to see citations supporting the notion that technological progress has slowed since the 1970s.

Looking around me I see some evidence:

CCD Cameras: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge-coupled_device#History LEDs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#Initial_c... Laser diodes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_diode#History LCDs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid-crystal_display#History Microprocessors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprocessor#History

All invented before 1970. However, they were not really in the hands of consumers by this time. So, I wonder if the point of invention, or the point at which they really had widespread availability is more important?

Re: How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

#82

Post by knowaveragejoe »

clydethefrog wrote: post #9
redwood wrote: post #4

I just don't understand how he can call himself a libertarian. Self-rationalizing has no ends.

Look at the people behind Y Combinator that condemn Trump because according to them he represents a real threat to the safety of women, minorities, and immigrants[0], but at the same time have many financial ties with Thiel's practices. They have financial power to take a stand against this threat, but decide not do it. [0] http://blog.samaltman.com/the-2016-election

I fail to see what this has to do with Peter Thiel's self-identification as a libertarian.

Re: How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

#83

Post by AndyMcConachie »

lightbyte wrote: post #20
AndyMcConachie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is blatant capitalism in conflict with libertarianism? I ask this question genuinely because I never know what Americans mean when they use the term libertarian with a small L. What specifically about this ideology is being broken here? I understand American libertarianism to be based in selfishness and greed to the collective benefit of society. So that if we're all greedy and act out of our own best interest so…

American libertarianism is about excluding the government from as much as you possibly can. Mass surveillance of a states citizens if practically the antithesis of that.

So it's about freedom to do whatever you want, like make a immoral product and sell it. After all it's not Palantir that's doing the surveillance. They're just making a product and selling it.

I guess I don't see this personal responsibility morality angle of libertarianism as it's been explained to me by Americans. It seems to be focused on restricting government action, like you said, not restricting the actions of individuals.

Re: How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

#84

Post by humanrebar »

api wrote: post #77
choxi wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your opinion about the causes of this "mini Dark Age"? Do you still feel that we're in it?

Around the early 1970s, the great watch-word of the culture became "back." This came primarily in two forms: back to nature (left), and back to the Bible (right). Under the hood both embrace the naturalistic fallacy (natural equals good) and the idea that there is a proper order from which we have deviated (sin, redemption, reconciliation). This manifested as the Religious Right, the anti-development wing of the Gree…

That's a lot of interesting writing. Thanks.

Though I think the alt-right is an embracing of the worldview of identity politics that mainly comes from the left. It's a if-we-can't-join-in-fight-them response to picking sides. That's to say I don't think it's a social conclusion to a rejection of future improvements or something.

Also, if you look at my sibling post, I indirectly point out how I think some of the implications of progressive social change have inhibited progress in other areas.

In other words, maybe we're not innovating in space travel because we're too busy innovating in generational mobility, family structure, and other things. It's unreasonable, I think, to assume that changes of that magnitude wouldn't have unintended consequences in other areas.

Re: How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

#85

Post by beachstartup »

potatosoup wrote: post #49
clydethefrog wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the people behind Y Combinator that condemn Trump because according to them he represents a real threat to the safety of women, minorities, and immigrants[0], but at the same time have many financial ties with Thiel's practices. They have financial power to take a stand against this threat, but decide not do it. [0] http://blog.samaltman.com/the-2016-election

> He represents a real threat to the safety of women, minorities, and immigrants As an immigrant myself, I keep seeing famous people write this, but I want some kind of "citation needed." What plans does this actually refer to?

they deliberately conflate legal (skilled) immigrants and illegal aliens. to them, there is no difference.

it is a hyper-egalitarian interpretation of the word 'immigrant' with no basis in law or social norms.

Re: How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

#86

Post by threatofrain »

Anderkent wrote: post #71
threatofrain wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view, rich people have the prerogative to adopt political views which appear contrary to their own interests; but in fact, they can easily achieve those interests elsewhere regardless of political environment. You can adopt any view on abortion you want if you and the people you know can easily fly to another country to get excellent medical service. What do you care if gun laws are loosened or tightened? You h…

Because all rich people are completely selfish, and care nothing for others. /s

I'm not talking about propensities of selfishness. I'm talking about the prerogative of power. Selflessness doesn't change that. Whether or not you are selfish does not hobble your prerogative to purchase citizenship and property in New Zealand.

Re: How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

#87

Post by humanrebar »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #83
lightbyte wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American libertarianism is about excluding the government from as much as you possibly can. Mass surveillance of a states citizens if practically the antithesis of that.

So it's about freedom to do whatever you want, like make a immoral product and sell it. After all it's not Palantir that's doing the surveillance. They're just making a product and selling it. I guess I don't see this personal responsibility morality angle of libertarianism as it's been explained to me by Americans. It seems to be focused on restricting government action, like you said, not restricting the actions of…

> It seems to be focused on restricting government action, like you said, not restricting the actions of individuals.

Libertarians believe in restricting actions. They just think having the government do it in all cases is an overreach and harmful. If citizens want, through free speech, new mores, and free association, to eliminate tobacco addiction, that's not a big problem. In contrast, having the government throw people in jail over cigarettes is not acceptable.

Re: How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

#88

Post by Bartweiss »

otalp wrote: post #36
redwood wrote: post #4

I just don't understand how he can call himself a libertarian. Self-rationalizing has no ends.

I don't think he's a traditional American libertarian. If you read his book Zero To One, he states that he thinks a fundamental truth that most people don't realize is that improving technology is more important than globalization for the human race, which is fine, but that leads him to the conclusion that things like welfare and tax increases are an abomination holding back progress, which makes him against both. I…

Zero to One was a hell of a read, even just as a Thiel biography - I think you're right to conclude that he's not a libertarian in the classic sense. The "Secrets" chapter among others suggested that he just has a vastly different view of where value and progress come from than most people, and is driven by that rather than the usual moral/economic arguments for libertarianism.

Re: How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

#89

Post by api »

humanrebar wrote: post #84
api wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around the early 1970s, the great watch-word of the culture became "back." This came primarily in two forms: back to nature (left), and back to the Bible (right). Under the hood both embrace the naturalistic fallacy (natural equals good) and the idea that there is a proper order from which we have deviated (sin, redemption, reconciliation). This manifested as the Religious Right, the anti-development wing of the Gree…

That's a lot of interesting writing. Thanks. Though I think the alt-right is an embracing of the worldview of identity politics that mainly comes from the left. It's a if-we-can't-join-in-fight-them response to picking sides. That's to say I don't think it's a social conclusion to a rejection of future improvements or something. Also, if you look at my sibling post, I indirectly point out how I think some of the impl…

Identity politics is quite regressive. I left that out but it's another example of 70s-liberalism and as such has become a part of the great synthesis.

I'm not sure I buy the latter part. The still-innovative cities and regions of the USA tend to be more on the socially liberal side of the divide, and if you look into the people who were responsible for all that basic invention in the past you'll find quite a mixed bag of social viewpoints from Marxism to early-SJW-ism to Naziism and eugenics to everything else you can think of.

At best I think there is little correlation between proximate political views and capacity for invention. But on a deeper level I think all of these people had a basic futuristic orientation to their thinking.

Edit: think of it this way:

Marxists, 60s "Leary era" hippies, post-WWII era American progressives, Eisenhower conservatives, and eugenicists and Nazis all believed that they were working to create a new and better world that was qualitatively superior to the existing world or to worlds of the past. They just disagreed about how and about what that new world would look like.

All the post-70s liberal and conservative regressive movements I discussed all agree that a new world is futile or foolish and that we should go back to something. They just disagree about why innovation is futile and what we should go back to.

The alt-right as the ultimate synthesis posits that we should go back to nature and the Bible and the pre-enlightenment social order. It's a totalistic anti-progressive movement.

Re: How Peter Thiel’s Palantir helped expand the NSA’s global spy network

#90

Post by 0x27081990 »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #40
0x27081990 wrote: post #29

Most comments here seem to hate Peter Thiel, but when it comes to Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Larry Page (all whom seem to be in bed with governments since a long time and worked with Hillary Clinton's campaign staff), well there's nothing wrong there because democrats are the good guys, right? What would you do in their place? They don't make the rules. Government does, and you vote for government. So don't try…

Multiple people can be bad for reasons entirely their own, "but shes doing it TOOOOOOO" is the reasoning and defense of a child.

Bashing someone who's more succesful than you is what grown-ups do. Right?
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