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A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

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Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#81

Post by smallnamespace »

gizmo wrote: post #74
theoh wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I didn't mean to beg the question by simply claiming that people can rationally evaluate statements. The things people learn are not noise. They have structure, they have hidden consistencies. Whatever you think of the rationality or otherwise of thought, surely you will agree that trying to learn inconsistent facts is going to be more trouble than learning consistent facts which support each other in a cumulativ…

I guess we look at the world very differently, because: > They are unlikely to ever agree with/be persuaded by complete inconsistent nonsense, however often it is repeated. Like, I mean nonsense that doesn't even have linguistic structure or maybe any meaning. If the US election hasn't persuaded you that complete gibberish can be persuasive when repeated endlessly, there's nothing I can say that will.

It might be gibberish at a factual or logical level, but at least for a certain portion of the populace, it hits all the right emotional notes and checks all the right boxes in their value and belief systems.

Of course, you won't see it yourself if you don't share their worldview and are unable to empathize and put yourself in their shoes.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#82

Post by mistermann »

pimeys wrote: post #28
hueving wrote: post #16

>Hitler's rules sound vaguely familiar. I don't think comparing Hillary to Hitler is that appropriate.

Can I ask you a question? Are you trolling or what are your aiming here? Now it's of course downvoted to oblivion, but I'd like to know why even here, amongst smart people, we go down into so cheap comments and even try to defend changes that will eventually make lifes of people like me a living hell.

> we go down into so cheap comments

Plenty of people are making the exact same "cheap" comparison to Trump, except to you that's likely ok. You're witnessing a difference of opinion.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#83

Post by Xeoncross »

tunap wrote: post #42
Xeoncross wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do propose we pick "the truth"? This is the problem we now face: Truth has been labeled relative.

Parse the wording of the statement(s) in question. Look for lapses existing between the actual language of a message and it's intended result. Wordsmith's are expert at saying nothing substantial while allowing(encouraging) the audience to perceive or project their biases to said message.

I'm curious now, mind dissecting this quote?

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#84

Post by rawnlq »

See also the problem of induction from philosophy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/.

Here induction refers to inductive reasoning rather than mathematical induction. For example if you see a billion white swans you might conclude that "swans are white". It's not "true" but it's not wrong either from a bayesian point of view. We really don't have any other way of doing experimental science.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#85

Post by gizmo »

smallnamespace wrote: post #81
gizmo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we look at the world very differently, because: > They are unlikely to ever agree with/be persuaded by complete inconsistent nonsense, however often it is repeated. Like, I mean nonsense that doesn't even have linguistic structure or maybe any meaning. If the US election hasn't persuaded you that complete gibberish can be persuasive when repeated endlessly, there's nothing I can say that will.

It might be gibberish at a factual or logical level, but at least for a certain portion of the populace, it hits all the right emotional notes and checks all the right boxes in their value and belief systems. Of course, you won't see it yourself if you don't share their worldview and are unable to empathize and put yourself in their shoes.

I think that's right, but in part because it's all gibberish people with wildly different values can hear him speak and still and hear what they want to hear.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#86

Post by novalis78 »

dilemma wrote: post #6
lacampbell wrote: post #5

I wish once people realised this, they had the courage to apply this to their own dearly held beliefs, particularly political or social ones - how many of those are just lies repeated ad nauseum that clearly aren't true? But I think most peoples reaction is just to say "Yeah! that's totally what those other people do that our side never does because we're right.".

Have you applied it to your own beliefs? Which ones? Do you no longer believe in them?

Triangulation. Take in news sources from opposite sides of the political (scientific etc) spectrum and take them all in in equal size/depth. They'll repeat their own message to make you believe you are "on the right side of the issue" but with triangulation both brainwashing attempts cancel out.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#87

Post by chillwaves »

cgriswald wrote: post #33
cryoshon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But I think most peoples reaction is just to say "Yeah! that's totally what those other people do that our side never does because we're right.". to guard against this, as soon as i am aware of a catchphrase or common talking point, i mentally deconstruct it and find the truth. frighteningly, the most commonly repeated verbiages are, should we say, misleading. but lean a little closer, stranger, and i'll whisper the…

> but lean a little closer, stranger, and i'll whisper the truth into your ear: the "two sides" are unequal in their abilities for evaluative thought, self righteous zealotry, and dogmatism. an honest attempt at critical evaluation will go nowhere if your evaluating apparatus is garbage. The very fact that both sides are convinced there are two sides suggests this is a false statement. The "sides", really the false d…

We have two political parties in the United States. Do you believe the voters for each side are at parity in their ability to understand reality? Do you believe it is helpful to suggest people choose neither?

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#89

Post by astrange »

chillwaves wrote: post #87
cgriswald wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but lean a little closer, stranger, and i'll whisper the truth into your ear: the "two sides" are unequal in their abilities for evaluative thought, self righteous zealotry, and dogmatism. an honest attempt at critical evaluation will go nowhere if your evaluating apparatus is garbage. The very fact that both sides are convinced there are two sides suggests this is a false statement. The "sides", really the false d…

We have two political parties in the United States. Do you believe the voters for each side are at parity in their ability to understand reality? Do you believe it is helpful to suggest people choose neither?

We're closer to having one, since the smart people like to convince themselves not to support the second one through sophistry.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#90

Post by ianai »

gizmo wrote: post #13

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classroom setting, a forum like this one, or in sales. This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Let's take Noam Chomsky for instance. He gives more than a hundred talks…

I forget who said something like this, but "the danger is not in being heard. The reality is in having a good idea and having to repeat yourself over and over."
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