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The next big blue collar job is coding

wired.com

81–90 of 114 posts

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#82
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> but I'm not sure the "dedicated developer for a small e-commerce site" job exists much anymore. They have been replaced by Shopify, WIX and even Amazon. Mate I thought this was the case until over the last 2 years I have met a number of mum and dad "coding" companies that literally make their bread and butter from building websites using these platforms and shit like wordpress. I was actually blown away that a few…

Developers need to get out of their bubble and realize that even a basic website is sorcery for 99% of the population. I'm thankful that I started off in online marketing and then learned to code because I remember what it was like to know nothing and can see opportunities that people like yourself overlook. This post reminds me of the infamous HN dropbox comment in terms of how out of touch it is.

This is it exactly, the blue collar programming jobs are using the tools mentioned by the GP to build sites.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#83
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? That made perfect sense.

Word salad was the term I was thinking of ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophasia ), for a while he couldn't speak publicly because he would just say random words instead.

You don't have to personally be doing every little thing you advise someone of doing. Perhaps it's something that didn't work for him (because he physically had issues speaking), but he recognized it as being important for other people to do.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#84
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want an average successful life, it doesn’t take much planning. Just stay out of trouble, go to school, and apply for jobs you might like. I wonder why so few manage it then? Perhaps it was easy for Scott Adams, but most people have different experiences. What if you can't afford college, for example?

I think by "average successful" he means something like being able to pay rent and raise children (if that's a goal) and living to retirement age.

So being able to get through life with your basic needs and propagate is the definition of success now? I mean I guess that's certainly true to a certain extent, but that bar seems damn low.

It does feel like it's a difficult bar for so many people to clear nowadays, though.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#85
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> but I'm not sure the "dedicated developer for a small e-commerce site" job exists much anymore. They have been replaced by Shopify, WIX and even Amazon. Mate I thought this was the case until over the last 2 years I have met a number of mum and dad "coding" companies that literally make their bread and butter from building websites using these platforms and shit like wordpress. I was actually blown away that a few…

Developers need to get out of their bubble and realize that even a basic website is sorcery for 99% of the population. I'm thankful that I started off in online marketing and then learned to code because I remember what it was like to know nothing and can see opportunities that people like yourself overlook. This post reminds me of the infamous HN dropbox comment in terms of how out of touch it is.

The downside of the 'sorcery' impression is that they actually think it's magic and once you make magic happen, you can do anything. There are no engineering trade offs to make. Your request isn't unreasonable or infeasible. If you don't cast spells for me, I'll look around for someone who will (try). Cheaper.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#86
I'm going to make an assertion that will like make some of you angry. Let me start with this... Life is a bell curve. Everything you observe from weather to color to taste to whatever, measured multiple times across a large sample tends to land into a bell curve. Now we all know this also applies to people's intelligence. We tend not to emphasize it, because as empathetic members of society we know categorizing people can lead to unethical behavior. But ignoring the spread of human intelligence does not make it false. So what does this have to do with the article? Think back to high school where we were all constantly reminded of our ranking amongst our peers. Some got A's, some B's, most got C's, then the D's and F's. Now think of the friend you had that fell into the D/F group. Which do you think they are better suited for? Pouring concrete or writing secure Javascript logon pages? Let's move across the bell cure into the C's. Do you think they are better suited to hanging sheetrock or writing discrete transactional SQL in a multithreaded environment? See what I mean? Now we move to the B's, a much smaller group. They can likely code, but do they have the aptitude? I know people consistently making the Dean's List in college who can barely understand variable assignment, let alone pointer arithmetic or referential integrity. So to say that we just shift the "blue collar" workforce from "industrial" tasks to writing code, I can't see it.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#87
post #2

Considering the quality of the code I see currently and the costs created by that technical debt I'm not sure if becoming less elitist will be a good thing. Instead of all these code camps, I can't help but wonder if we could get 90% of the value and 10% of the problems if we taught people shell scripting instead of programming. It looks like wireds ad-blocker blocker has been circumvented now at least.

The nice thing about software projects is that they're easily replaceable. They can be treated as any other business asset in that you can hire a shop to develop them or do it in-house. So long as you have enough business eyes on the process then it works. Expensive, but it works. Businesses are used to expensive. The real value of good code is way, way less than developers would like to believe. This is coming from…

> The real value of good code is way, way less than developers would like to believe

Soooo much this.

But it's also important to note the difference between code and system design. The vast majority of code that's written is solving problems where system design doesn't tend to make a huge amount of difference.

It's only when you get to a certain scale and/or in certain domains that the system design starts to matter, and even there, the code itself is of little import.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#88
post #8

From Scott Adams: "If you want an average successful life, it doesn’t take much planning. Just stay out of trouble, go to school, and apply for jobs you might like. But if you want something extraordinary, you have two paths: 1. Become the best at one specific thing. 2. Become very good (top 25%) at two or more things. The first strategy is difficult to the point of near impossibility. Few people will ever play in th…

This is great advice, but you have to be more entrepreneurial, or at least have more personal initiative, to take option 2, especially in high tech.

Here's the problem - if you apply at a company that follows the standard "technical interview", you will be tested on one thing only - your coding ability at a whiteboard. Here's what can happen.

An employee at the 89%ile in writing, speaking, sales, and coding would be very valuable and rare.. However, this employee must interview with 5 people, all of whom filter out anyone who doesn't land in the top 10%ile.

Companies rarely create jobs for this sort of multifaceted worker who is top 25% in many areas but not quite top 10% in any of them. Truth is, they don't really understand what this is or why it would be valuable. A software developer might benefit tremendously from expertise in these other fields, but if you don't do really well in the whiteboard exercise, you're out. As a result, software interviews tend to filter out people who can present, write, or sell well. Those workers are still out there, of course, but I think companies reduce the probability that a developer will have these skills through the interview process - and I'm not sure they increase their probability of finding good developers appreciably, even when measured purely by coding skill.

Of course, every inefficiency contains an opportunity. My advice to companies is to look for paths to identify and hire people who can do more than one thing. My advice to individuals is this - first, get as good at the coding tests as you possibly can. But probably better is to try to enter a company through a path that doesn't go through software engineering. Trust me, they will fail you out if you can't find all permutations of a set at the whiteboard, even if you could do this quite easily given 15 minutes and stack overflow (and fully understand what you are doing).

So? Learn to code, and let that be your superpower. I know a few people who had a cs/math background and worked as analysts when they started their careers, and have learned to do quantitative analysis, programming, database design, and so forth, and they are rock stars in their fields, highly valued and often invited to speak at conferences. However, when they interview, they don't go through five hours of whiteboard exams - their interviews are actual interviews, they way almost everyone outside tech understands them. Our interviews are more or less indistinguishable from exams (except without the conventions that make exams more fair for the student, such as feedback, consistent grading, a study path, and so forth). Every now and then, when you pop your head out of the tech bubble and talk to people in other fields, you'll see that they actually shudder when they hear about what our interviews are like. Most importantly, they don't get filtered out because they haven't reviewed their textbooks from whatever they studied their second year of college book and prepared for final exams (again). Seriously, anything you can do to leave a field that forces you to do that is worth considering as an option.

Like I said, this will take more personal initiative on your part. People don't really advertise these positions, you have to show the value and build your way into it. Another "problem" is that you probably won't get the pay grade for a software developer track right away - but you may build your way up, and when you get there, you'll be unusual, invaluable, and probably have a more enjoyable job.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#89

A presumption of this article, and many like it, is a backwards-looking and somewhat elitist view of the economy and the workforce. Consider these quotes: * "What if we regarded code not as a high-stakes, sexy affair, but the equivalent of skilled work at a Chrysler plant?" * "teachers and businesses would spend less time urging kids to do expensive four-year computer-­science degrees and instead introduce more code…

>The idea that 'college isn't for everyone' is elitist. It really means that 'college isn't for the children of the working class, only those of the wealthy'. I actually think you're right that it's elitist, but I don't think this "college is not for everyone" attitude is about money, but about intelligence and personality characteristics. These things happen to also correlate with "wealthy," for values of wealthy ab…

> this "college is not for everyone" attitude is about money, but about intelligence and personality characteristics. These things happen to also correlate with "wealthy,"

You're claim is that children born into wealthy families are naturally more intelligent? And that 70% of people in state universities flunk out, and they flunk out due to marijuana usage?

Hmmm .... I think we'd need to see some basis for these theories.

Re: The next big blue collar job is coding

#90

A presumption of this article, and many like it, is a backwards-looking and somewhat elitist view of the economy and the workforce. Consider these quotes: * "What if we regarded code not as a high-stakes, sexy affair, but the equivalent of skilled work at a Chrysler plant?" * "teachers and businesses would spend less time urging kids to do expensive four-year computer-­science degrees and instead introduce more code…

> Sanders proposed college for all, arguing that high school was sufficient a century ago but now college is needed. Clinton proposed something similar, free college for families making I would be careful here drawing conclusions like this. Voting for a candidate or party is an extremely imprecise way of determining public support for any one policy, because they're effectively an aggregation of various policy ideas…

Agreed; I didn't mean to imply otherwise but I wasn't being very precise about it.
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