Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mathematical genius is fragile

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 96 posts

Re: Mathematical genius is fragile

#81

Post by ktRolster »

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #42
deepnotderp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except iq is a terrible metric....

Why?

Because they are calibrated not to measure innate intelligence, but our own cultural norms. The canonical example might be, imagine you were lost in the Australian outback. Would you rather have Albert Einstein as your guide, or a skilled Aborigine? The Aborigine would likely get a low score on logic puzzles, but at highly skilled activities like way-finding and tracking game, he would beat Einstein hands down.

IQ doesn't measure intelligence, it measures artifacts of intelligence that appear in our culture.

Also, it's a mistake to think that IQ is static. There have been studies that show wild swings in IQ over time, especially in teenagers, and even changes in the collective IQ of a culture (the Flynn effect).

In addition, it seems likely that a person could study and improve their IQ score.

The counter-argument is that although IQ tests have flaws, they are still to some degree a predictor of success in life.

Re: Mathematical genius is fragile

#82

Post by ktRolster »

dagw wrote: post #73
throwaway5752 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every 7' tall person is a great basketball player, and not every great basketball player is 7' tall. With all due respect, what you say is a consummate example of "dangerously bad idea that makes a good sound bite". Most mathematicians out there are not Hilbert, Gauss, Riemann, or Euler. They are reasonably smart people that work hard over long periods of time to learn their craft and their field, and make increm…

not every great basketball player is 7' tall In fact look at any list of the greatest basketball players of all time. Very few of them are 7' tall. Now look at a list of pro basketball players over 7', most of them are middle of the road journeyman players most people haven't heard of.

Add to your point: the vast majority of 7' tall people are not very good at basketball.

Re: Mathematical genius is fragile

#83

Post by ktRolster »

ZeroFries wrote: post #74
lordnacho wrote: post #72

I find it hard to accept the "you must be 7ft tall to play basketball" story about why people become good at something. My own view is more something like what bodybuilders say. Some people find it harder to grow than others, but everyone can do it. And people who put effort into it will definitely be separable from people who don't, regardless of endowment. Now as for who gets to be written into history books, there…

Isn't a part of a person's endowment their ability to work hard and put in effort where it's required, when it's required? The 7ft tall thing is an example of an easy to see factor, which some people have, and some don't. In reality, as you say, there are unlimited factors going into a person's greatness (or lack-of). By the way, there was a study where, given the same weight lifting program, a couple people gained t…

there was a study where, given the same weight lifting program, a couple people gained tons of muscle, most gained some, some gained none, and a few even lost muscle. Not everyone can gain appreciable muscle

This is a non sequitur. A reasonable follow-up study would try to figure out why those people didn't gain muscle, and how that can be changed (the first things to look at would be diet and sleep. If they're not getting enough food, of course they will lose muscle).

Re: Mathematical genius is fragile

#84

Post by stupidcar »

I think these sort of anecdotes about genius mathematicians are rather disheartening. For many students, math is a struggle, even with the advantages of a good education. Hearing about how such-and-such a person derived the whole of number theory from an old Sesame Street book they found in the trash just makes me feel dumb in comparison.

If anything, the examples given suggest that mathematical geniuses will find a way to contribute whatever the obstacles in their way. But what about the majority of students who are turned off the subject because they don't have the same drive and natural ability? What's fragile isn't the abilities of savants, but the belief of the average person that math is something they can do, rather than the preserve of the super-intelligent.

Re: Mathematical genius is fragile

#85

Post by Moshe_Silnorin »

ktRolster wrote: post #81
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Because they are calibrated not to measure innate intelligence, but our own cultural norms. The canonical example might be, imagine you were lost in the Australian outback. Would you rather have Albert Einstein as your guide, or a skilled Aborigine? The Aborigine would likely get a low score on logic puzzles, but at highly skilled activities like way-finding and tracking game, he would beat Einstein hands down. IQ do…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven's_Progressive_Matrices

Re: Mathematical genius is fragile

#86

Post by deepnotderp »

ktRolster wrote: post #81
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Because they are calibrated not to measure innate intelligence, but our own cultural norms. The canonical example might be, imagine you were lost in the Australian outback. Would you rather have Albert Einstein as your guide, or a skilled Aborigine? The Aborigine would likely get a low score on logic puzzles, but at highly skilled activities like way-finding and tracking game, he would beat Einstein hands down. IQ do…

This^^.

I think another great example would be IQ tests in the army during WWI (and I think II?) in which one of the questions asked about a type of gun, which no one today would know, and other questions were like that as well. The point is that it measures cultural perceptions of intelligence, ie during WWI knowing your guns was considered intelligence.

Re: Mathematical genius is fragile

#87

Post by stale2002 »

whenwillitstop wrote: post #64
psyc wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women report being driven out by men hitting on them and sexually harassing them.

Your logic: Men in specific industries have a higher likelihood to sexually assault women, so much so that it pushes 90% of the women out of an industry with greater than 10M people. Do you understand how delusional that is?

It is not about actual sexual assault. It is about a hostile work environment.

Just because your coworkers aren't literally raping you doesn't mean that there aren't men out there who will be huge assholes to women.

Re: Mathematical genius is fragile

#88

Post by RangerScience »

Jillboy wrote: post #65
RangerScience wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only have anecdotal plus a bit of thinking...? Talent is pursued interest; genius is pursued passion. Most people won't have passion for mathematics, even if such passions were heartily encouraged - at the very least, because there are so many other things to also be passionate about.

I can get behind that, if we defined genius to be pursued passion. Not everyone has a passion for mathematics, that is true. I just thought what the root post was implying is that even if you're passionate, you might not have the potential to achieve genius-level skill because that would somehow be genetically predetermined. If that was what he was implying, I'd love to see some evidence to support the claim.

It's more like a correlation than a definition.

But more - it's the only reasonable-sounding argument for that part of the "Myth of a Meritocracy".

The caveat for the real argument is: People are more complicated than animals, and there's way more to it than genetics.

The real argument is: If everyone was capable of everything, evolution wouldn't work as a process.

The addendum of: of course this is inaccurate, poorly phrase, etc etc - the idea is still "new" enough to be unpolished.

Thoughts?

Re: Mathematical genius is fragile

#89

Post by sn9 »

ZeroFries wrote: post #74
lordnacho wrote: post #72

I find it hard to accept the "you must be 7ft tall to play basketball" story about why people become good at something. My own view is more something like what bodybuilders say. Some people find it harder to grow than others, but everyone can do it. And people who put effort into it will definitely be separable from people who don't, regardless of endowment. Now as for who gets to be written into history books, there…

Isn't a part of a person's endowment their ability to work hard and put in effort where it's required, when it's required? The 7ft tall thing is an example of an easy to see factor, which some people have, and some don't. In reality, as you say, there are unlimited factors going into a person's greatness (or lack-of). By the way, there was a study where, given the same weight lifting program, a couple people gained t…

>Isn't a part of a person's endowment their ability to work hard and put in effort where it's required, when it's required?

No this is largely a malleable set of traits.

Good teachers can frequently change them in whole populations of students.

Re: Mathematical genius is fragile

#90

Post by throwaway5752 »

0xFFC wrote: post #33
deepnotderp wrote: post #27

I'd just like to note that math in early years is taught as rote memorization problems and doing things over and over again like memorization. Contrast this with higher level math which is highly creative...

This is my exact problem. For my whole life i was afraid of math, after i (i had to took it, it was not my choice) took real Analysis class and watched Francis Su Real Analysis videos, I realized i like math more than CS (and cs was my only love in my entire life.). Right now i am starting abstract Algebra and i have plan to took probability and number theory after that. I am literally in love with math. It does feel…

I am (in a sense) a mathematician, and you've made my day! Keep at it. Get to complex analysis, it's remarkable.
Post reply on HN