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Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

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Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#81

Post by WhitneyLand »

kome wrote: post #31
Houshalter wrote: post #26

This reminds me of "The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics": http://web.archive.org/web/20160806191858/https://blog.jaibo... Our culture has a very strange belief that you shouldn't benefit from the less fortunate. Even if you benefit them too. People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives, will come out of the woodwork and complain about "exploitation".

"People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives" is a particularly American, or let's say anglophone, way to approach social justice. Charities are based on good will, but "the less fortunate" do not need "good will": they need social rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rights If you don't see "exploitation" when people need and they are willing to sell their blood, I have no idea what you…

Wow, you would take this opportunity away from them?

As a father this situation would be horrible if my only chance to provide things for my daughter was taken away to "help" me:

"he was giving plasma because his daughter had a birthday, and he needed $7.50 to buy her a bathing suit and money for a cake"

Sure, you can say it would be better if the dad had some other opportunity available, but that's changing the subject. This is what he has right now, that gives him more happiness than anything in his life.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#82

Post by chimeracoder »

adentranter wrote: post #78

Aussie here. This is an interesting contrast to what the state of blood donation and healthcare here is. I have never seen a for profit blood bank here. It's mainly one non for profit that takes blood donations. I have often tried to donate blood but been turned away due to my height vs weight ratio ( im skinny and tall ). I think the desire to donate blood for nothing may come from the fact that we receive pretty mu…

> I think the desire to donate blood for nothing may come from the fact that we receive pretty much free healthcare ( you can pay for health insurance and get access to better doctors and shorter waiting lists ).

Whole blood donations are (almost always) uncompensated in the US as well. This article is referring to plasma donations, which are different and take longer.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#84

Post by chimeracoder »

jeffdavis wrote: post #54
peacetreefrog wrote: post #49

Pretty basic economics. Quantity supplied generally == quantity demanded, as long as there's a functioning price system. It's why you can go to a gas station and (while the price certainly changes) count on them never being out of gas, despite whatever else is going on in terms of weather, OPEC or whatever. Paying people for plasma donation means there's plasma available for patients who need it. And it's not like th…

I agree because blood donation is safe. If it weren't, or we were talking about kidneys or something, it gets more complicated.

> I agree because blood donation is safe. If it weren't, or we were talking about kidneys or something, it gets more complicated.

Unsafe procedures provide even more justification for compensation. Otherwise, there's a shortage of people who will be willing to go through it for free, leading to even more exploitative incentives - peer pressure in the best case[0], or outright trafficking in the worst.

Remember that you can't prevent market activity from happening; you can prevent it from happening out in the open, and hope that the inconvenience and other risks are enough of a deterrent (look at the war on drugs, or sex work). But for an individual, there is no situation in which the stakes are higher than being denied a lifesaving treatment. That's the point at which, in the extreme case, even kidnapping or organ harvesting seem like viable options (to them), because they are literally the only option, other than death.

You might think I'm being hyperbolic, but this literally happens.

But if you can ensure an adequate supply from people who are properly informed about the risks and capable of consenting, there is no incentive to engage in that sort of activity.

[0] for example, pressure from an infertile relative who wants to use your eggs to conceive

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#85

Post by tunap »

jrs235 wrote: post #76
tunap wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a lot of plasma your body has to replenish. Sure the platelets are put back, but sounds extreme... IANAMD. I am referring to my experience in the '90s and it may have been allowed more than 2xs a month, but that is all I was comfortable with. When the payout was reduced >50% I desisted.

825 ml per time. I weigh approx 165 lbs. They give you a pint of saline.

That was a helluva rush when the cold water flowed up my bicep and into my chest. I was weighing in around 170 then, they always asked why I was so skinny... perhaps probing for indications of a drug problem? Am 6ft 0in, and 25 years later still 170lbs. Yay.

Back on topic: Adjusting for inflation(stagflation), that's a hell of a lot less today than when I initially quit. In your opinion, what percentage of people donating are not indigent? Back then I would have said maybe 25%, and those were all hard-up students from the University 4 blocks away.

edit: changed 'starving' to 'hard-up'. Technically, indigent too.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#86

Post by chimeracoder »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #83

So how come you can't "donate" a kidney and be paid for your time on the operating table?

> So how come you can't "donate" a kidney and be paid for your time on the operating table?

Because one is explicitly illegal and the other is not.

If you're asking for a justification behind that difference, the answer is that the laws are simply not consistent. Donating eggs, for example, can be compensated, and that's a relatively invasive procedure.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#87

Post by amorphid »

darawk wrote: post #70
kome wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People that have never donated a dollar to charity in their lives" is a particularly American, or let's say anglophone, way to approach social justice. Charities are based on good will, but "the less fortunate" do not need "good will": they need social rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rights If you don't see "exploitation" when people need and they are willing to sell their blood, I have no idea what you…

What's wrong with selling your blood? To me it seems like selling your time is a far more personal, unrecoverable injustice. And most people just call that 'work'. If you want to make it out like these people are being 'exploited', then you can make the case just the same that all property is exploitation. Railing against poor people donating blood plasma, or organs for that matter, is profoundly misguided.

Not an expert on the subject, but I recall hearing somewhere that selling blood gives people an incentive to lie about their health history.

"Do you shoot up illicit drugs with shared needles?"

"Um... No. No I do not."

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#88

Post by Retric »

gravypod wrote: post #61
Retric wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People also die due to disease contamination of the blood supply when you pay. Donation only blood supplies are much safer in the short and long term, until we can manufacture a replacement. Sure, right now we gave good tests for most diseases, but the next AIDS has no test making the long term risks real.

I don't think you read the post you replied to in full. He stipulated that the current testing methodology is good enough to prevent any death from blood purchasing.

None of the current tests are 100% accurate for known diseases. So, no it's really not safe today. Further as I said, the risk for the next outbreak is significant.

PS: Risks of AIDS are conservatively estimated at 1:1.5 million per transfusion, but some people get a lot of transfusions. Here is one example from 2008: https://www.cdc.gov/Mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5941a3.htm AIDS is also rapidly becoming drug resistant making reduced transmission even more important.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#89

Post by jrs235 »

tunap wrote: post #85
jrs235 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

825 ml per time. I weigh approx 165 lbs. They give you a pint of saline.

That was a helluva rush when the cold water flowed up my bicep and into my chest. I was weighing in around 170 then, they always asked why I was so skinny... perhaps probing for indications of a drug problem? Am 6ft 0in, and 25 years later still 170lbs. Yay. Back on topic: Adjusting for inflation(stagflation), that's a hell of a lot less today than when I initially quit. In your opinion, what percentage of people don…

Not indigent? 100% The center is located where it would be difficult to get to if indigent. There are three colleges in town and a large portion of donors are college students. Most others I would guess are blue collar or para professionals. I think the income comes in handy for a majority of donors. It might help many make ends meet. I don't think anyone would donate for free.

Re: Thousands of Low-Income Americans 'Donate' Blood Plasma to For-Profit Centers

#90

Post by gravypod »

Retric wrote: post #88
gravypod wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you read the post you replied to in full. He stipulated that the current testing methodology is good enough to prevent any death from blood purchasing.

None of the current tests are 100% accurate for known diseases. So, no it's really not safe today. Further as I said, the risk for the next outbreak is significant. PS: Risks of AIDS are conservatively estimated at 1:1.5 million per transfusion, but some people get a lot of transfusions. Here is one example from 2008: https://www.cdc.gov/Mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5941a3.htm AIDS is also rapidly becoming drug resistant…

This would very well still be a risk if they were all donations and not monetary transactions. The onus is on you to provide evidence to show a corelation between purchased blood and AIDS/HIV.
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