China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017 • Hacker News Board

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#81

Post by adamnemecek » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 12:19 AM UTC

matthewmarkus wrote: post #72

blondie9x wrote: post #67

This is really great news! But we can go even further, let's continue with banning Rhino horn markets (would we call it keratin markets rather than ivory?). Keratin would be primary component here, the same protein that makes human fingernails also is what composes Rhino horns. http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-vietnam-rhino-traf... In Vietnam and some of China there are some who cling to a belief that eating…

International trade in rhino horn has been banned (via CITES) since 1977. China banned the domestic trade of rhino horn in 1993. A similar ban is in place in Vietnam. You literally cannot ban it any further. If you want to ban the "keratin" market, make sure you promptly dispose of your woolen sweaters.

> You literally cannot ban it any further.

Eeeeh, even the definition of the word banned is very debatable. It definitely hasn't been flat out banned everywhere. And China did have pretty lax laws regarding this.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#82

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 12:48 AM UTC

adamnemecek wrote: post #61

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, they do this a lot. Every year they talk about how coal will be banned in Beijing next year, or that they'll stop harvesting organs from condemned prisoners, and so on. Just for them to repeat the same pledge next year. The Chinese gov promises arent credible, and something isn't a sure thing until they really do it.

> The Chinese gov promises arent credible, and something isn't a sure thing until they really do it. It's a first step. I think that this is slightly different from either of those because a.) the money in this industry and the number of people depending on it is only a fraction of those of coal mining b.) people will never need ivory the same way they need organs Even though they do have a long way to go, promising…

They (the families in charge) own most of the ivory themselves and this is just like promising to be good. Remember when Xi's entourage stocked up on ivory on an official trip to Africa?

http://qz.com/292268/chinese-officials-allegedly-smuggled-iv...

Like they need convenient access to organs for Guanxi oriented transplants, they want nice ivory to decorate their villas. The fact that they aren't subject to Chinese law (until they are expelled from the party) anyways makes this very easy.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#83

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 12:49 AM UTC

thinkloop wrote: post #80

There have been quite a few downvotes for suggesting that illegalization may not be the best remedy. What are people's thoughts on something like: https://youtu.be/YUA8i5S0YMU tldw: Controlled trophy hunting big game is one of the most effective ways (sadly) of protecting the hunted animals.

And it's effective because 1) it brings in a lot of money which goes towards conservation, and 2) it economically incentivises conservation.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#84

Post by freehunter » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 12:59 AM UTC

matthewmarkus wrote: post #76

Pica_soO wrote: post #70

I always wondered- why is the ivory market not flooded with fakes? Everything is faked in china, this is a valuable good- is there no way to synthesize dentin flood the poachers out of the buisness?

For ivory, you would essentially have to grow a tooth in vitro for less than $1500, retail. Technologically, we're not there yet.

Can you prove that ivory is ivory? Why not ceramic or plastic or something that feels like ivory but isn't?

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#85

Post by DanBC » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 1:02 AM UTC

Pica_soO wrote: post #70

I always wondered- why is the ivory market not flooded with fakes? Everything is faked in china, this is a valuable good- is there no way to synthesize dentin flood the poachers out of the buisness?

One source of fake ivory is mammoth tusk, which isn't under the same bans.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/04/125-mammoth-tusks/...

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#86

Post by okreallywtf » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 1:21 AM UTC

thinkloop wrote: post #80

There have been quite a few downvotes for suggesting that illegalization may not be the best remedy. What are people's thoughts on something like: https://youtu.be/YUA8i5S0YMU tldw: Controlled trophy hunting big game is one of the most effective ways (sadly) of protecting the hunted animals.

If you are interested in thoughtful debate on that topic, watch (listen?) to this debate that I heard on the radio a while back and was able to find [1]. My girlfriend and I were on the way back from a run and ended up sitting in the driveway for a good 30 minutes listening. I was leaning towards one side already but not so much that I wasn't open to the arguments of the other side, but I was really impressed overall with the format and the quality of the arguments on both side. I felt one side had a significantly better supported stance but it was really pleasing to hear a quality debate on the topic. Well worth the listen.

[1] http://www.intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/hunters-conserv...

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#87

Post by Camillo » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 1:23 AM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #17

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and apparently one of the most effective strategies was using Yao Ming and Jackie Chan as spokespeople against shark fin consumption!

I remember the day Mr. T convinced me not to do drugs.

To be fair, you also had countless celebrities broadcasting the message that drugs are cool and awesome.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#88

Post by mingdingo » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 1:31 AM UTC

DoodleBuggy wrote: post #19

They need to go further and ban any and all exotic animal trade for the quackery medicine and delicacy markets.

As well as put in place some animal cruelty laws. You would hold your head in your hands if you saw what happens. For dogs, for example, they will tie their front legs together BEHIND their back (YES, DISLOCATING THEM), and leave them tied up like that with a tin can over their mouth until they're ready to deal with them. They'll even hold the dogs legs like a "handle" while carrying them around. I've never seen cruelty like it...

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#89

Post by acomjean » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 1:36 AM UTC

thinkloop wrote: post #80

There have been quite a few downvotes for suggesting that illegalization may not be the best remedy. What are people's thoughts on something like: https://youtu.be/YUA8i5S0YMU tldw: Controlled trophy hunting big game is one of the most effective ways (sadly) of protecting the hunted animals.

Gernerally I think environmentalist and hunters have the same objective, conserve a species.

When I was in Africa, it was pointed out that the "game hunters" get to bring back a trophy, and that trophy containing ivory often never makes it back, going into the black market. Keeping a steady lower bound on the supply for those making a living in smuggling, and enabling poaching elsewhere.

I have no answers to this problem. One hopes it can be stopped on the demand side, and this move by China will help. Ivory is an odd substance to be considered so valuable.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#90

Post by justicezyx » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 1:53 AM UTC

bwilliams18 wrote: post #3

finid wrote: post #2

Good move, but that gives those traders about 12 months to "kick up the volume" of ivory traded. After that, it becomes a typical black market affair, kinda like trade in stolen art works.

China's effort to reduce shark fin soup consumption was incredibly effective. I hope this will be equally successful.

Kudos to Chinese government to work together with international society and celebrities to raise the awareness of normal Chinese people. Shark fin was considered a delicacy, but in fact not tasty at all. Most people just need to get the truth be told to them in a way that they are willing to listen, Cheng Long and Yao Ming are perfect public faces for such effort.