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No tipping means better business

tastefulventures.com

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Re: No tipping means better business

#81

Post by csydas »

joshontheweb wrote: post #29
lefstathiou wrote: post #16

I've traveled the world and have come to the conclusion that diners are better off in a tipping environment. Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and time again we have come to the realization that incentives matter and incentivizing good service makes sense to me (and I shouldn't have to order a bottle of wine at lunch to get it). If all someone is going to do is play telephone from one side of the room to the…

Agreed. Tipping culture gives more power to the customer and results in better service in my experience. Every time I come back to the US I experience a noticeable increase in attention and service. Also, when abroad, if they find out you are from the US many servers will put in extra work as they know there is a decent chance you will tip based on your home culture. I always tip even in countries where it isn't expe…

I disagree.

I'm an expatriated US citizen, and I find the restaurant service abroad on par with US restaurants, with the only difference being how much lip service is given by the servers.

To explain it simply, in US restaurants, I feel like someone is trying to brown-nose the entire time. It's not value that I seek, it's someone doing something and trying to place value on it. The servers are mostly pleasant, and at worst, it's just over the top corporate politeness being enforced, with of course the occasional just bad service.

Abroad, the server is indifferent - when the food is ready, it is brought. They are as polite as you would you expect a restaurant server to be, and in general just want to take your order, deliver food, and then get out of your way because they know you're not at the restaurant for their company, you're there to have some food and drink, presumably with friends/family/colleagues. And just like with US restaurants, there is occasional bad service.

The difference in my mind is the attempt to provide the 'service' that isn't really necessary. This isn't looking down on servers or dismissing the effect a good attitude can have on enjoying a meal, but for the most part the degree to which it is taken when I'm back in the US is over the top. I know it's hard work and that the servers want to do everything possible, but corporate politeness isn't the way to do it. It makes the experience feel really rushed to me and it also feels like a process instead of me being able to just relax and enjoy some good food.

Re: No tipping means better business

#82

Post by rdl »

I used to hate tipping but now I love it. I spend >100 nights/yr in hotels, and tipping the bellman/doorman well on the way in is one of the best investments in a good stay (calibrating tips for the point where he gives you his name, and ideally phone number, for "if you need anything else"; $10 in most third tier US cities; $20 in a place like New York). Las Vegas basically runs on $5s and $20s -- everything from "valet lot is full but we can keep your car right here for you" to moving carts full of pelican cases to getting vehicle maintenance done to whatever.

In the Middle East/Central Asia I am very happy to be "the American who tips and is polite" vs "the American who is worth $5k if we call that guy...".

In China I had hotel staff literally spend the afternoon with me navigating Beijing police to recover a $5k loss (successfully; btw Beijing tourist police are awesome too.)

Tipping reasonably well at restaurants/cafes you frequent (I try to pick a couple per city) makes getting tables, impromptu meetings, etc much easier to set up.

If you view tipping as an obligation it sucks, but once you view it as a chance to get what you want it is great.

Re: No tipping means better business

#83

Post by smallnamespace »

ohwello wrote: post #79
smallnamespace wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I misunderstood the LVT as something that is levied against the landowner every year? Yes, but it still doesn't affect the (rational) landowner's decision. Imagine an improvement that can net the owner $Y a year in profit. A rational owner should always make that improvement, regardless of whether the government is also taxing them $X a year on the land. If they doesn't have the money/capital to do so, they should…

>Yes, but it still doesn't affect the (rational) landowner's decision. Imagine an improvement that can net the owner $Y a year in profit. A rational owner should always make that improvement, regardless of whether the government is also taxing them $X a year on the land. It's not just about whether return is positive, it's about the highest ROI considering opportunity cost. Consider a simple case where two lots with…

> With a tax on land value only, the single lot with two stories is preferred.

Yes, but that's because tax on land + improved value distorts incentives (by discouraging improvements).

Usually when we say the LVT doesn't affect incentives, the baseline of comparison is against no land taxes of any form. In that world, you would prefer to develop the single lot because you need to buy less land, so the result is the same as with LVT.

Re: No tipping means better business

#84

Post by arrrg »

pzh wrote: post #55

The problem with no tipping, in my experince (especially in Europe), is that waiters aren't incentivized to turn tables. If you go to a popular spot for dinner that happens to be completely full and ask for a table, the waiter will usually shrug their shoulders and say 'Sorry, try again tomorrow.' Usually, there is no concept of a waiting list or a waiting time estimate, because diners are conditioned that they can s…

I usually just reserve a table a couple of days in advance … (Germany)

Being able to talk and enjoy your time even after you’ve finished your meal is a feature, not a bug.

(But there are tips in Germany, though the average tip is probably well below ten percent.)

Re: No tipping means better business

#85

Post by manicdee »

rdl wrote: post #82

I used to hate tipping but now I love it. I spend >100 nights/yr in hotels, and tipping the bellman/doorman well on the way in is one of the best investments in a good stay (calibrating tips for the point where he gives you his name, and ideally phone number, for "if you need anything else"; $10 in most third tier US cities; $20 in a place like New York). Las Vegas basically runs on $5s and $20s -- everything from "v…

But when you realise that tipping is bribing public officials to get service that regular taxpayers do not get, doesn't that take the shine off?

Re: No tipping means better business

#86

Post by rdl »

manicdee wrote: post #85
rdl wrote: post #82

I used to hate tipping but now I love it. I spend >100 nights/yr in hotels, and tipping the bellman/doorman well on the way in is one of the best investments in a good stay (calibrating tips for the point where he gives you his name, and ideally phone number, for "if you need anything else"; $10 in most third tier US cities; $20 in a place like New York). Las Vegas basically runs on $5s and $20s -- everything from "v…

But when you realise that tipping is bribing public officials to get service that regular taxpayers do not get, doesn't that take the shine off?

I don't consider a hotel bellman to be a public official, despite the Pinochetian uniform.

(In the case of Beijing, the police were just friendly and no tip was expected. The hotel staff I'd tipped (concierge, etc) were the preparation; it was the #4 guy at hotel (director of guest experience; reports to GM) who helped me. He is senior enough that I didn't tip him, but did get him rewarded through Starwood, and will bring him a suitable gift next time I'm in Beijing -- presumably a bottle of alcohol of some kind not commonly available in China, or some other US thing)

Re: No tipping means better business

#87

Post by ktRolster »

randomdata wrote: post #68
colechristensen wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly seems like it should be more efficient for 100 people to eat dinner in a restaurant than for 40 people to cook 100 meals. (100 / average household size (~2.5) = ~40) And yet it's considerably more expensive. Because, it seems, a considerable amount of the cost of restaurant food goes to the overhead costs of the real-estate owners and the financial system. This is both directly and indirectly (the cost o…

> And yet it's considerably more expensive. Even after you've included all of your costs? It's easy to say the raw food ingredients are considerably less expensive, but that's only a small part of the story. There is a cost of having a kitchen (tools and space in the home), utility costs, not to mention your time. Maybe a high end specialty restaurant that is selling an experience, but I'd be surprised if you could a…

Maybe a high end specialty restaurant that is selling an experience, but I'd be surprised if you could actually compete with a place like McDonalds on cost.

Fries and a hamburger are about the easiest thing to make, requiring no special equipment. The ingredients are a lot cheaper than buying at McDonald's, too.

If you have more than one person eating, then the cost savings can really add up.

Re: No tipping means better business

#88

Post by microtonal »

rdl wrote: post #82

I used to hate tipping but now I love it. I spend >100 nights/yr in hotels, and tipping the bellman/doorman well on the way in is one of the best investments in a good stay (calibrating tips for the point where he gives you his name, and ideally phone number, for "if you need anything else"; $10 in most third tier US cities; $20 in a place like New York). Las Vegas basically runs on $5s and $20s -- everything from "v…

If you view tipping as an obligation it sucks, but once you view it as a chance to get what you want it is great.

If you have the money to tip for such amounts. All others will just the lower quality service.

Coming from a Western European country that does not have much tipping, I think I like egalitarian customer service more ;).

(Not meant as a personal attack, just to point out that it's not feasible for everyone to do this.)

Re: No tipping means better business

#89

Post by Dylan16807 »

rdl wrote: post #82

I used to hate tipping but now I love it. I spend >100 nights/yr in hotels, and tipping the bellman/doorman well on the way in is one of the best investments in a good stay (calibrating tips for the point where he gives you his name, and ideally phone number, for "if you need anything else"; $10 in most third tier US cities; $20 in a place like New York). Las Vegas basically runs on $5s and $20s -- everything from "v…

So in those cases you're tipping to get service beyond their job. Or we could call it "actual tipping". That's fine by itself. The problem is when "tipping" replaces wages and becomes obligatory. But, annoyingly, the former tends to lead to the latter. It's a hard problem to solve.

Re: No tipping means better business

#90

Post by aninhumer »

lefstathiou wrote: post #16

I've traveled the world and have come to the conclusion that diners are better off in a tipping environment. Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and time again we have come to the realization that incentives matter and incentivizing good service makes sense to me (and I shouldn't have to order a bottle of wine at lunch to get it). If all someone is going to do is play telephone from one side of the room to the…

Based on what I've seen in the US, tipping doesn't encourage good service, it encourages noticeable service.

I'd rather be served by a slightly inattentive sullen teenager in the UK, than a perky waitress with a fake smile pestering me all the time in the US.

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