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Intake – American's largest psychiatric chain

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Re: Intake – American's largest psychiatric chain

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There can be pernicious motives whether a facility is nominally for profit or not. This is colloquially known as "whataboutism". The fact that there are other pernicious motives is completely irrelevant. For-profit medicine constitutes a pernicious motive -- that's the point.

Well, I don't agree with that. I see generous salaries as being exactly the same thing as profit (they are just taxed differently). I also have difficulty with the idea that only de facto agents of the state can deliver healthcare (care only available at fixed prices, etc). So my point is that you need external controls regardless of the motivations of the actors inside the institution.

> I also have difficulty with the idea that only de facto agents of the state can deliver healthcare (care only available at fixed prices, etc).

It seems that they aren't the only difficulties you have. In a social health-care system, possession of a medical license doesn't entail one's employer. You're more than welcome to set up private practice, though you'll have less chance of the career defining cases, as the majority of patients will not be using your one-man-band practice. Thus many doctors in the UK, split their time between their private practice and public services. The only thing that's "de-facto" is the need to be qualified to treat people.

Re: Intake – American's largest psychiatric chain

#82

> “Your job is to get patients,” said a former clinician at Salt Lake Behavioral. “And you get them however you get them.” > Two dozen current and former employees from 14 UHS facilities across the country told BuzzFeed News that the rule was to keep patients until their insurance ran out in order to get the maximum payment. Coincidentally, I was discharged this morning from a psychiatric hospital in Canada. In a non…

On the flip side, the state run facilities in the US always try to push people out or, "get them back on their feet." I had a swimming instructor who told me her brother was mentally ill and was in and out of these all the time. He'd feel he'd need to stay there a few more weeks, but they'd push him right out. He'd do okay for a while, then stop taking his meds (because most of those meds do make you feel like shit),…

Sadly for people who are like the man you mention, "a few more weeks" is in actual fact a lot longer. The problem is more likely to be the lack of a proper support network to help this individual care for themselves in the long-term, as well as helping maintain routines and structure in their life. This is not something that can be done in an environment as tightly constructed as a mental institution. It requires a combination of professionals and friends on the outside, who are able to give this person round the clock support to help deal the the complexity of life in a uncontrollable environment.

Unless we (as a society) can find a way to provide this for those who have been pushed to the fringes of reality, there will still be a significant portion of people pushed into the Treat-Release-Repeat loop for years to come.

Re: Intake – American's largest psychiatric chain

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There can be pernicious motives whether a facility is nominally for profit or not. This is colloquially known as "whataboutism". The fact that there are other pernicious motives is completely irrelevant. For-profit medicine constitutes a pernicious motive -- that's the point.

Well, I don't agree with that. I see generous salaries as being exactly the same thing as profit (they are just taxed differently). I also have difficulty with the idea that only de facto agents of the state can deliver healthcare (care only available at fixed prices, etc). So my point is that you need external controls regardless of the motivations of the actors inside the institution.

This is completely beside the point. "For-profit healthcare" and "well-paid doctors" are distinct concepts.

Doctors are still very well-paid in France, for instance. It's just that the hospital isn't expected to turn a profit.

Re: Intake – American's largest psychiatric chain

#84
post #8

> Lauren Singer, who worked for six months at the front desk of Colorado’s Highlands Behavioral, said people who were waiting in the lobby for an assessment would ask her what it would entail. “I would frequently get yelled at for overstepping my bounds and telling them too much about the evaluation process,” Singer said. A button behind the receptionist’s desk controlled the lock to the front door of the facility, a…

If these allegations are proven and those responsible for these policies don't spend significant time in prison then we can no longer deny that we live in a corrupt society.

Feel free to think otherwise, but we are living in a corrupt society. This isn't any news to anybody except those with no experience with any part of the government system.

Re: Intake – American's largest psychiatric chain

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There can be pernicious motives whether a facility is nominally for profit or not. (For instance, say there is a doctor who gets paid in proportion to the time they spend treating patients at a non profit facility)

>There can be pernicious motives whether a facility is nominally for profit or not. This is colloquially known as "whataboutism". The fact that there are other pernicious motives is completely irrelevant. For-profit medicine constitutes a pernicious motive -- that's the point.

I believe the GP is arguing that the same exact motives can happen in non-profit hospitals (as in the tax designation). This amounts to (at most) no more than a different route for the profits to those setting these policies. IMHO seeing this as a separate issue makes about as much sense as seeing false advertising to be separate problem depending on whether the corporation files as a C-corp or S-corp.

I for one think it is very important that any attempts to prevent this behavior don't leave loopholes for non-profit hospitals, so keeping this in mind here is actually very important.

Re: Intake – American's largest psychiatric chain

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but removing the profit motive of the facility removes one major incentive for coordinated, large scale corruption like this. Other incentives (like production-based compensation being gamed by unscrupulous individuals) will have to be dealt with in other ways.

So without profit, the operating metric will be what exactly?

Patient outcomes?

Re: Intake – American's largest psychiatric chain

#88
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why weren't criminal charges pressed? Why is nobody in jail? Holding people hostage is definitely illegal.

Because in the US (at least) if the victim won't press charges the police can't take action. And in a case like this the defence will attempt to attack the (alleged, at the time of the trial) victim's credibility, which can be devastating. It's the main reason why rapists so often get away with it. Also why gang members are hard to convict. Some crimes don't have a legal victim, e.g. murder (victim is dead) or so-cal…

This is not true. The only person with the choice/authority to prosecute is the prosecutor.

Re: Intake – American's largest psychiatric chain

#89
There was an interesting Diane Rehm show about involuntary psychiatric admission recently. It seemed a bit better balanced than the Buzzfeed piece since it wasn't focused on the apparent misdeeds of a particular organization.

https://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2016-11-29/the-debate-ove...

Re: Intake – American's largest psychiatric chain

#90

I have a (relatively minor) nit-pick with some of the language in the article. Early in the article the author writes "Current and former employees from at least 10 UHS hospitals in nine states said they were under pressure..." However, a few paragraphs later she writes "But scores of employees from at least a dozen UHS hospitals said those facilities tried to keep beds filled even at the expense..." I don't understa…

As you're learning about the story, you might hear a few things "on background, off the record." That means that you can't really act like you were told that, but you now know that you have a story. So, you start reporting, and over time you get employees asking for anonymity from 10 hospitals to say such and such, and from 12 hospitals to say another thing, and you heard some of this on background. So you can say "at least" but you can't say the full number. If there is a libel or defamation lawsuit, your sources can be reviewed under seal, but since you don't note the source of your background information, you can't state that those sources exist.
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