Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video]

#81

Post by soared » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 9:34 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #20

soared wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and that goal sounds similar to the goal of Kill Analytics [1]. "The industry" doesn't even exist as an entity. Gov regulation seems like the only viable way to fix it. But on the other hand, Google AdSense has done a lot to improve advertising online. Popups and bad ads used to be waaay worse than they are now (not that they are okay now). So maybe we do just need a few big players to step up and change thin…

> So maybe we do just need a few big players to step up and change things. The question again is, how to make those big players do something that will lose them money.

Do it in a way that earns them more money. Sounds difficult but that is what adsense did. If legit ux practices earn more, companies will use them.

Potential scenario: someone makes a browser plugin that blocks dark patterns as if they were ads, so companies who use them don't see any traction with them.

Or 50 years out when everyone is computer literate, users are aware of dark patterns and punish companies who use them by not buying their products.

Re: Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video]

#82

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 9:34 PM UTC

cle wrote: post #27

One pattern that I consider "dark", but don't see in this list, is using loaded options on a dialog box. One that I often see in apps is like: Rate our app! Those really get under my skin because the developer is clearly trying to play a psychological trick on me, but it's so brazen and obvious that it just pisses me off. And bigger companies do it too (e.g. Google).

[deleted]

Re: Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video]

#83

Post by soared » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 9:35 PM UTC

alphapapa wrote: post #72

soared wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and that goal sounds similar to the goal of Kill Analytics [1]. "The industry" doesn't even exist as an entity. Gov regulation seems like the only viable way to fix it. But on the other hand, Google AdSense has done a lot to improve advertising online. Popups and bad ads used to be waaay worse than they are now (not that they are okay now). So maybe we do just need a few big players to step up and change thin…

> Gov regulation seems like the only viable way to fix it. So we can have more "This website uses cookies, okay?!?!?" banners popping up all over the place? No thanks. Besides, do you really want a bureaucrat telling you how to design your web site, with penalties enforceable by law?

Yeah those popups suck. I think there are better ways to implement things like that. Maybe a button in a web browser that reports sites to a 3rd party that assesses sites and can hand info over to the government for levying fines.

Re: Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video]

#84

Post by whoisjuan » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 9:36 PM UTC

I wrote an article about this. Basically explaining the difference between designed inconveniences and deceptive patterns: https://medium.com/art-marketing/designed-inconveniences-ux-...

Re: Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video]

#85

Post by mangeletti » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 9:38 PM UTC

Another dark pattern (used to gain more positive ratings in apps) is:

    Do you love our app?

      Yes         No
       |          |
       |          |
     ______     ______
     Opens      Does
     AppStore   Nothing

It's a bit like saying, "Do you love candidate X?", and then giving instructions for voting only to those who answer "yes".

Re: Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video]

#86

Post by godelski » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #15

Great video and great website. My only nitpick: the author wants the industry to agree on a "code of ethics." Unfortunately, such exhortations strike me as naive. They are unlikely to work, because the truly bad actors will continue to use dark patterns regardless, putting pressure on all other actors to follow suit. The key challenge is not in getting the good actors to do the right thing, but in preventing the bad…

A code of ethics is a perfectly acceptable solution actually. Several other institutions have codes of ethics that must be followed and there have been legal adoptions because of them. For example the Hippocratic Oath. Many times doctors have been asked to do harm to patients. Of course it does happen, BUT if a doctor refuses and gets punished in some way for that then a major lawsuit can ensue. Many engineers have codes of conduct as well.

I think this would be much harder to pass, and would be more akin to financial advisers being required to be fiduciaries, but hey, that is now required in the US. What is required for that to happen is mainline support though. But that will be difficult to get. I think this is, like the privacy stuff, is a little too abstract for the average person.

Re: Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video]

#87

Post by zpallin » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

This presentation is great. I think a good next step on the path toward ending unethical UX could be in creating an international ethics review board for it.

I know it sounds silly, but this is how a lot of decisions are agreed upon by many large organizations, and help encourage involvement and following the rules. See W3, ICANN, ESRB, IETF, etc.

The "BUXE", or Board for User eXperience Ethics (just my name idea) could be founded by a group of consenting UX designers, companies, and organizations. Together they would vote on and establish UX design principles that would be up for review every year or so.

The BUXE will accept fees for reviewing a website's adherence to their ethics and would give ratings to them based on how well they follow the guidelines. The resulting site can then publish their BUXE rating on their site.

Individual developers could be given honor status if they are particularly vocal or involved in ensuring the development of ethical UX that could be accolades for them to brag about (something important to developers). It's a good resume booster, anyway.

Plenty of other ideas.

Re: Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video]

#88

Post by cm2187 » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

artursapek wrote: post #64

cle wrote: post #27

One pattern that I consider "dark", but don't see in this list, is using loaded options on a dialog box. One that I often see in apps is like: Rate our app! Those really get under my skin because the developer is clearly trying to play a psychological trick on me, but it's so brazen and obvious that it just pisses me off. And bigger companies do it too (e.g. Google).

There's a tumblr for that! They call it "confirm shaming". http://confirmshaming.tumblr.com/ And yeah, it's UX cancer.

And even Apple is doing it. You you want to update your iphone now or tonight?

Re: Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video]

#89

Post by johansch » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

angry-hacker wrote: post #78

johansch wrote: post #26

My pet peeve: If you add a credit card to the Uber app there is no way to remove it without replacing it with another valid payment method. If you google solutions to this you get third party recommendations to plead with their customer service to have it removed. Seriously? This customer-hostile approach really needs to be killed.

Is this even legal? I'm in EU and I was able to remove my credit card. Maybe it's an American thing?

I'm in the EU and I was not able to remove before doing that trick with a virtual CC. What country are you in? (I'm in Sweden.) It's quite possible that officials/bank people in your country made noises about this and they white-listed this particular country.

Re: Dark Patterns – User Interfaces Designed to Trick People [video]

#90

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 06, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

angry-hacker wrote: post #78

johansch wrote: post #26

My pet peeve: If you add a credit card to the Uber app there is no way to remove it without replacing it with another valid payment method. If you google solutions to this you get third party recommendations to plead with their customer service to have it removed. Seriously? This customer-hostile approach really needs to be killed.

Is this even legal? I'm in EU and I was able to remove my credit card. Maybe it's an American thing?

[deleted]