I also do not understand how it's hypocritical unless you believe the idiot assumption that one has to commit fully to open or close standards exclusively. Jobs has a much more pragmatic view and I cannot recall any point in which he suggested otherwise. The one thing his open letter makes clear is that Apple is not very interested in advancing other companies closed platforms especially if it undermines their own. That's completely a completely rational approach. I'm not sure why people are so compelled to project these idealogical purity tests on others. It's childish.
Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife
81–90 of 119 posts
Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife
#82The only people I know defending Adobe and Flash are Flash developers and Adobe itself. Everybody else tolerates Flash begrudgingly. I miss a few flash games here and there on my iPhone. Beyond that, good riddance. Flash is the RealPlayer of the decade.
The whole article really has nothing to do with Flash. Did you even read it? It's about Jobs saying "this is bad for reasons X, Y, and Z", without acknowledging that Apple is guilty of the exact same BS.
Example - he basically says Adobe sucks because they just finally got around to releasing a full "Cocoa" binary for CS5. And yet Apple has the same problems. The Finder was Carbon until Snow Leopard was released, less than a year ago. And iTunes, arguably their biggest app, is still Carbon. Yet somehow because Adobe still had Carbon apps as of a few weeks ago, they are evil.
Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife
#83I don't understand the big deal. Do people really love developing in flash that much? Is the flash development community really this big? I have a feeling that a lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon because it gets attention. It is really weird, before this everyone hated flash. It was pretty well accepted as a necessary evil that we all wished we could do without (at least that is the vibe I got). We are now a…
The whole article really has nothing to do with Flash. Did you even read it? It's about Jobs saying "this is bad for reasons X, Y, and Z", without acknowledging that Apple is guilty of the exact same BS.
Example - he basically says Adobe sucks because they just finally got around to releasing a full "Cocoa" binary for CS5. And yet Apple has the same problems. The Finder was Carbon until Snow Leopard was released, less than a year ago. And iTunes, arguably their biggest app, is still Carbon. Yet somehow because Adobe still had Carbon apps as of a few weeks ago, they are evil.
Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife
#84What happened to OSNews? I remember it being a pretty good tech news site a while back but now it seems that every day there's another over-written, hyper-ventilating, peanut-gallery-baiting "opinion piece" like this. Good for selling ad impressions I guess.
You didn't actually read the article, did you? It makes a lot of very good and perfectly valid points.
Let me also guess - you own a Mac and an iPhone, and are mad because someone is saying bad things about your precious Apple. Correct?
Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
The claim here appears to be that since Apple ships Windows apps that don't use that platform to its fullest And Mac apps. iTunes and Final Cut Pro are still 32-bit Carbon, with no indication of that changing anytime soon.
Maybe it's wrong of me to be pointing out votes, but it really irks me that the original comment is at 46 as of this writing, while yours is at 4. So I want to comment in favor of stressing the above comments, hard . Considering a substantial discussion of the semantics of the word "hypocrisy" followed, with some people taking one side, and some the other, let's make a correction to the original presumption so that e…
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Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife
#86I wish I knew why the concept of hypocrisy is so difficult to grasp that people are prone to apply it incorrectly. Maybe people just don't understand when someone is making a moral statement, and when someone isn't. The claim here appears to be that since Apple ships Windows apps that don't use that platform to its fullest, Jobs cannot claim that least-common-denominator middleware is unhealthy for a platform. That m…
The claim here appears to be that since Apple ships Windows apps that don't use that platform to its fullest And Mac apps. iTunes and Final Cut Pro are still 32-bit Carbon, with no indication of that changing anytime soon.
The very fact that those are some of the things that have been criticized the most (the list would have had to have included Finder until a few months ago!) and with many cries to have them converted to Cocoa may reveal hypocrisy but it also proves Jobs' point: cross-platform, least-common-denominator stuff almost never provides the level of enjoyment that native, non-legacy stuff does.
Many think the web has proven that cross-platform apps are fine. It hasn't — the web is its own platform.
Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why bother inventing an abstract normative claim when you can quote the actual (and only) one that appears in the document: "...we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open." Now, proceed from there.
Why does Apple get to define the boundaries in this debate? What entitles them to demand that standards in the domain of competitor's products must be open whereas standards in their own business domain need not? I agree that the web should be built on open standards but for exactly the same reasons that digital audio and video and mobile computing ecologies should also be open.
Why does Apple get to define the boundaries in this debate?
The simple fact that the present article accuses them of hypocrisy. For the accusation to stick, one must compare their actions to what they actually say - not to what we erroneously infer from it, or to some semantic-changing paraphrase, or to outright straw men - but to what they actually profess.
Yes, there is a larger debate about software freedom, but there are many of us who value the proprietary software model and open standards and free software for different reasons and in different contexts, so people who are dogmatic one way or the other don't get to set the terms of the debate either.
Regardless, the larger debate is not germane to the current accusation. Retreating to the larger debate does not help make the accusation stick - it's just a way of changing the subject while making it seem as though you have not.
Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly. Replace "iTunes sucks on Windows" with "Flash suck on iPhone" and "Windows" with "iPhone SDK" and you're making his argument for him. Not that I agree with their policies, but this article's arguments aren't very good.
It's an incredibly simple claim. Apple is engaging in hypocritical policies. Apple forbids actions on its own platform that Apple uses to make money and gain market share on other platforms. I don't see how you can interpret this any other way.
That isn't hypocrisy. Jobs isn't saying he believes that people must never create cross-platform apps — he's just saying that they suck (as this author acknowledges Apple's cross-platform apps do) and thus he doesn't want them on his system.
It's like the owner of McDonalds not wanting to take his wife to a McDonalds for their anniversary — he's not saying nobody should eat there, just acknowledging that it's rather low-class for the given situation.
Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife
#89I wish I knew why the concept of hypocrisy is so difficult to grasp that people are prone to apply it incorrectly. Maybe people just don't understand when someone is making a moral statement, and when someone isn't. The claim here appears to be that since Apple ships Windows apps that don't use that platform to its fullest, Jobs cannot claim that least-common-denominator middleware is unhealthy for a platform. That m…
I strongly disagree with the author, but I grasp his point of view. Let me try to explain it. There exists an ideology of "open is always better than closed": open source is better than closed source, open formats are better than proprietary formats, etc. When Jobs talks about WebKit/SquirrelFish being open source implementations of open standards, he is, intentionally or not, appealing to that audience. But obviousl…
I'm not sure I really get what you're saying either. You're asserting everything should be open ("pure morality") and "industry" ("practical morality") are somehow at opposite ends of a spectrum, and that it would be good if we somehow strove to be somewhere in the middle of that spectrum.
Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why bother inventing an abstract normative claim when you can quote the actual (and only) one that appears in the document: "...we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open." Now, proceed from there.
I think it's clear that a norm of using the Cocoa API is implied here: > Adobe has been painfully slow to adopt enhancements to Apple’s platforms. For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago I was thinking specifically of the Cocoa norm -- which iTunes apparently does not meet -- I should have made that more clear. How much more open is H…
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