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A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

washingtonpost.com

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Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#81

Post by DanBC »

kennethh wrote: post #78

Am I the only one who react when they write in the article "Although more men than women take their own lives, the rate of suicide has nearly doubled among middle-aged white women since 1999..." And the whole article is about women who take suicide. The writer is a woman but this is typical for big publishers like Washington Press. They very seldom write about mens problems and challenges.

Men die more often than women. But women have started using more lethal methods than they used to, and women make more attempts. This combination - increased lethality of method and greater number of attempted suicide is worrying.

Newspapers often report the fact that rates of death by suicide are rising. (It's a bit more complicated than how they report it - there was a decline in rates for many years). Most of the rise is in women. In the UK rates of death for men have dropped a bit, but rates for women have risen a bit, causing the overall number to rise.

Washington Post has written before about the disproportionate number of male deaths by suicide, so they're not ignoring it.

A couple of examples:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/the-h...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/08...

If you want an anti-feminist article that mentions in passing male suicide: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/...

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#82

Post by throwanem »

noobermin wrote: post #75
throwanem wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can also enormously exacerbate symptoms of depression, and despite claims often made by its cheerleaders is no more a panacea than exercise, SSRIs, or indeed anything else.

Yeah, did a quick google, only reputable thing I could find is this[0]. Yes, a tired meme, but what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence...and at a rung above no evidence, can be eviscerated with a link from a first pass at a google search. [0] http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/exp...

Everyone seems hung up on causation. I'm just talking about how something that glues your ass to a couch isn't necessarily the best thing to combine with a disease that also saps volition.

Sure, you don't feel it so strongly while you're high. That's one of the nicer things about that particular drug, paranoia aside. But that only works while you're high, subject to the same habituation process as anything else - and it's not the same as actually doing something to help yourself.

I don't doubt there are people with depression for whom marijuana has been a substantial help. That's great! I'm glad for them, and that legalization is making it easier for people whom marijuana helps to maintain access to it. I also think it's reasonable to approach marijuana with the same caution as any other potentially beneficial drug. Arguing that, because there's no uncontested evidence that marijuana causes depression, there's no harm it can possibly do a person with depression - does not seem all that cautious to me.

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#83

Post by [deleted] »

bcook wrote: post #80
duaneb wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you said. Of course, I've also heard psychiatrists call me irresponsible for going off medication that was actively holding me back from the energy and motivation I need to work well (and feel good about my life). There is certainly a diversity of opinion amongst practicing psychiatrists even what the role of the medication is.

Did you go off the medication without any input or supervision from a doctor? I've had doctors accuse me of being irresponsible for doing that, and I have to agree.

[deleted]

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#84

Post by duaneb »

bcook wrote: post #80
duaneb wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you said. Of course, I've also heard psychiatrists call me irresponsible for going off medication that was actively holding me back from the energy and motivation I need to work well (and feel good about my life). There is certainly a diversity of opinion amongst practicing psychiatrists even what the role of the medication is.

Did you go off the medication without any input or supervision from a doctor? I've had doctors accuse me of being irresponsible for doing that, and I have to agree.

I think I fulfilled my end of the doctor patient agreement; I used the medication for years and tailed myself off slowly under supervision.

The SSRI detox is no joke, but it was a relief compared to sleeping much more than necessary.

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#85

Post by Bluestrike2 »

fapjacks wrote: post #77
Bluestrike2 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of that pushback is because that same advice can be twisted into a sort of "just will the depression away" suggestion that's kind of tone deaf and insulting to people suffering from depression. It's not uncommon for people to say exactly that, as if it's little more than a light switch that needs to be flicked off. And most of the time, those sorts of comments are pretty patronizing, along the lines of "just man…

This is the other thing I don't understand. People seem to have it all figured out, when it comes to other people's feelings. I'm not sure where in my description you get the impression that I don't know what depression is like. I wasn't hitting rock bottom after a bad week at the office. I was laying on my living room floor drinking for a couple of months after my fourth combat tour. When I tell people to try taking…

I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Actually, I'm pretty upset I made you feel that way to begin with. Talk about ironic, given the point I was trying to make. I kind of took your comments as a segue to respond to the sort of un-thinking ignorance I mentioned your comments getting compared to/judged by/fighting against. It wasn't you I was suggesting don't know what depression feels like, but generic "suck it up" thoughts I was thinking about in response.

That said, I still absolutely agree with you. Lifestyle changes can have a profound impact on depression, and perhaps more importantly, can help support other behavioral changes long-term. They might not make the problems go away, but they'll absolutely help people get through the worst aspects, even if other treatments (medication, therapy, CBT, etc.) are needed alongside them.

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#86

Post by zepto »

ashleypt wrote: post #73
zepto wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no, the burden of proof is not with me. I am claiming that something doesn't exist - I.e. A medication that cures depression. This is similar to saying 'there are no unicorns'. Neither statement can be proven by citation since there is always the possibility that a unicorn (or a medication that cures depression) has been overlooked. If there is such a medication, it should be trivial for savanaly to point it…

I think a lot of people are getting confused about 'cure' vs 'management.' In my case it helped with neither. SSRIs only /treat/ (not cure) a deficiency of serotonin, which for some people is all they need. I think some people have a strong genetic predisposition to depression, however that doesn't mean "therefore medication." But depression comes in a lot more forms than just a simple serotonin deficiency, it's also…

Exactly this - curing depression takes far more than medication, and if those other resources are not available, medication won't cure it.

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#88

Post by DanBC »

lcall wrote: post #87

There is really no substitute for family, and for coming to know God. The government or this-or-that philosophy will not give our lives purpose and direction. The Mormon missionaries can help. Really.

Do you have any evidence that there's a lower rate of death by suicide for people in the LDS church?

One group at increased risk of death by suicide are LGBT people (at all ages). Religious groups tend to do badly by these people, and anecdotally there's a few news article about deaths by suicide of LGBT teens who were part of LDS church.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-lead...

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#89

Post by lcall »

DanBC wrote: post #88
lcall wrote: post #87

There is really no substitute for family, and for coming to know God. The government or this-or-that philosophy will not give our lives purpose and direction. The Mormon missionaries can help. Really.

Do you have any evidence that there's a lower rate of death by suicide for people in the LDS church? One group at increased risk of death by suicide are LGBT people (at all ages). Religious groups tend to do badly by these people, and anecdotally there's a few news article about deaths by suicide of LGBT teens who were part of LDS church. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-lead...

Thanks for your polite response. I've seen references debating general suicide levels in Utah, USA (one interesting, later debunked I think), but I think people tend to believe what they want, and I haven't researched it. My personal experience seeing a wide variety of situations in my own family and others, including many problem types that people experience in life, strongly bears out the quote (Tolstoy?) that happy families are all alike, and miserable ones are each miserable in their own way. Following certain principles leads to the predictable results. We all have hard problems; having the life tools available to deal with them and use them as building blocks instead of being crushed by them, makes me feel very fortunate.

I hope you don't mind if I add, to to try to somewhat dissuade others' anger: Some people respond harshly when one who is not atheist simply says what one knows personally from experience. It's usually good to hear a variety of viewpoints. I just know what I see, etc and how it all relates. So I just try to keep going forward with purpose and direction, because I know where it leads, and the things I can't control will be OK eventually.

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#90

Post by lcall »

lcall wrote: post #89
DanBC wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence that there's a lower rate of death by suicide for people in the LDS church? One group at increased risk of death by suicide are LGBT people (at all ages). Religious groups tend to do badly by these people, and anecdotally there's a few news article about deaths by suicide of LGBT teens who were part of LDS church. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-lead...

Thanks for your polite response. I've seen references debating general suicide levels in Utah, USA (one interesting, later debunked I think), but I think people tend to believe what they want, and I haven't researched it. My personal experience seeing a wide variety of situations in my own family and others, including many problem types that people experience in life, strongly bears out the quote (Tolstoy?) that happ…

ps: I certainly don't mean all sadness is one's own fault, or that medication is never warranted, nor do I wish to minimize the realities we can all face as individuals. But life decisions, perspective, forgiveness, knowledge of purpose and answers to the big questions, support systems, etc etc, seem to matter most of all.
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