Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team • Hacker News Board

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#81

Post by smsm42 » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 2:51 AM UTC

untog wrote: post #44

darawk wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No he didn't. He suggested, correctly, that women getting the vote was bad for libertarians, because women vote against it. If you read the quote in context, that is very clearly what he's saying.

Edit: conversation was flagged, so I'm out.

> how could it be anything other than a "bad thing" in this context?

"X lead to Y which is bad" is not the same as "X is bad". For example, relative abundance of high-calorie food led to obesity epidemics in the US. Is pointing out this fact means one wants Americans to starve to death? Or just pointing out some things have consequences, some of which are not good, even if things themselves are good? There's no law of nature that says consequences of something we consider good all must be good, and it's often not so.

> Why would you want him in government?

Because he knows how dangerous is raw democracy to freedom, just as folks who made the Constitution knew and thus made specific restrictions on the democratic powers of the Congress? You know, all that "Congress shall make no law"?

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#82

Post by vinay427 » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 2:51 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #69

vinay427 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've stated the contrapositive, which is fine, except that he didn't imply that denying women the right to vote would be a positive strategy regardless of the effects it had on his ideology of choice.

If he could get his Libertopia at the cost of women's suffrage, do you think he'd balk at that? Or do you believe he's not a means-justify-the-ends type?

You're asking me to guess how he would respond to a hypothetical situation, so I will respectfully decline to do so as I am certainly not qualified.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#83

Post by scrollaway » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 2:51 AM UTC

daxorid wrote: post #37

_pius wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great moral courage there. YC has a choice: do what IBM did in the 1930's or not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust And before you say I'm "going Godwin," remember: It was Sam and Paul who've said they think Trump is a threat of similar proportions. If Sam really thinks that, the moral thing to do is cut ties. And yes, it'll be hard. Would have been easier to do before the election. It will only get…

What is going on with this community? I feel like I am taking proverbial crazy pills. Clinton advocated for a "Manhattan Project" scope effort to backdoor crypto. She wants no-fly zones over Syria, a place we have NO business being in, to directly provoke proxy wars with Russia. She is extremely antagonistic to freedom of association and free enterprise, and she LOVES the panopticon surveillance state we have. She is…

The subthread you are replying to didn't mention Clinton. Didn't talk about Clinton. Didn't even say the word "Clinton" once. Yet your reply is entirely about Clinton. Why?

You'll find that a lot of people in this community actively dislike Clinton. But after the election, she is now essentially irrelevant. So talking about her doesn't advance anything - talking about the upcoming president, however...

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#84

Post by kafkaesq » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 2:52 AM UTC

fib739mbbh wrote: post #24

_pius wrote: post #2

Meanwhile, Trump's already got an RFS in waiting: http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-says-he-... https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs/ The longer YC waits to do the right thing on this, the worse it will get.

As usual, the media distorts what Trump actually said. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/nov/24/...

Apparently, the "certainly implement" part was a misattribution. But if you follow the analysis in the article you posted, it's quite clear that Trump basically does favor the idea of such a registry -- and that yes, it would be mandatory for all "legal" entries into the country:

Friday, Nov. 20

The next day, an MSNBC reporter asked Trump, "Should there be a database or system that tracks Muslims in this country?"

"There should be a lot of systems," Trump responded. "Beyond databases. I mean, we should have a lot of systems."

Trump then digressed to talk about a wall along the southern border, before the reporter interjected, "But that’s something your White House would like to implement."

"I would certainly implement that. Absolutely," Trump said.

Here, we’re not clear if Trump is talking about implementing a wall or implementing a database.

But a few seconds later, when asked how he would register people into a database, Trump said, "It would just be good management."

Finally, the reporter asked if Muslims would legally have to be part of the database.

"They have to be — they have to be," Trump said. "Let me just tell you: The key is people can come to the country, but they have to come legally."

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#85

Post by enraged_camel » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 2:52 AM UTC

moultano wrote: post #39

untog wrote: post #27

Edit: Flagged? Wow. This conversation seems extremely relevant to Thiel being in government. Genuinely disappointing that the people in charge of HN do not consider Thiel's extreme views to be worthy of discussion, and instead a "pudding".

>Thiel suggested in 2009 that giving women the vote was a bad thing. He did not say that. Read the article yourself. https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...

Full quote:

"The 1920s were the last decade in American history during which one could be genuinely optimistic about politics. Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of “capitalist democracy” into an oxymoron."

So if you break down his line of reasoning:

- 1920s were good because one could be optimistic about politics

- This changed when welfare programs were expanded and women were granted the right to vote

- Therefore, granting women the right to vote was a bad thing

I mean I dunno, regardless of how I read it, I can't extract any positive meaning from anything he said. He even said that he no longer believes freedom and democracy are compatible. So yeah...

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#86

Post by flukus » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 2:52 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #42

darawk wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No he didn't. He suggested, correctly, that women getting the vote was bad for libertarians, because women vote against it. If you read the quote in context, that is very clearly what he's saying.

In context his suggestion is that women being allowed to vote is incompatible with enacting his ideal philosophy of government. Which in turn implies that the only way to implement his ideal philosophy of government would be to deny women the right to vote.

He didn't suggest they were incompatible, he suggested that they haven't gone hand in hand, which they haven't. You could just as easily imply that he thinks libertarianism has marketed itself poorly to women.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#87

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 2:52 AM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #65

darawk wrote: post #4

This is good news, I think? Thiel has some extremish views, but I generally regard him as intelligent and thoughtful. And he's in close contact with other smart, influential people (e.g. Musk, Sam Altman, etc.), which gives them some indirect influence. Not that this makes things substantially better. But maybe a little bit? Hopefully?

Somebody who has "some extremish views" is advising Trump, who has some extremish views of his own. That's good news? Not from where I sit, it isn't.

[deleted]

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#88

Post by olioli » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 2:52 AM UTC

ben0x539 wrote: post #29

overgard wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The right thing". Tolerance means recognizing that people have different world views than your own. Sometimes the people you do business with have political opinions you don't agree with. The melodrama over Thiel's political opinions is pointless. If you demand Thiel steps down, are you personally just going to stop doing business with 49% of the country that voted differently? Personally I lean liberal, but I'm pre…

Nah, tolerance means that you gotta be ok with people from different religions, ethnic groups, w/e. The opinion thing isn't as important.

The guys who wrote the universal declaration of human rights seem to disagree with you.

"Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status."

"All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination."

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#89

Post by imron » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 2:53 AM UTC

untog wrote: post #44

darawk wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No he didn't. He suggested, correctly, that women getting the vote was bad for libertarians, because women vote against it. If you read the quote in context, that is very clearly what he's saying.

Edit: conversation was flagged, so I'm out.

You're ignoring his follow up clarification:

"It would be absurd to suggest that women’s votes will be taken away or that this would solve the political problems that vex us. While I don’t think any class of people should be disenfranchised, I have little hope that voting will make things better."

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#90

Post by roywiggins » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 2:53 AM UTC

daxorid wrote: post #37

_pius wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great moral courage there. YC has a choice: do what IBM did in the 1930's or not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust And before you say I'm "going Godwin," remember: It was Sam and Paul who've said they think Trump is a threat of similar proportions. If Sam really thinks that, the moral thing to do is cut ties. And yes, it'll be hard. Would have been easier to do before the election. It will only get…

What is going on with this community? I feel like I am taking proverbial crazy pills. Clinton advocated for a "Manhattan Project" scope effort to backdoor crypto. She wants no-fly zones over Syria, a place we have NO business being in, to directly provoke proxy wars with Russia. She is extremely antagonistic to freedom of association and free enterprise, and she LOVES the panopticon surveillance state we have. She is…

In my personal morality: Torture is an absolute evil. Military engagements to kill armed combatants that kill innocents is a relative evil. Surveillance is a relative evil.

Trump is the Torture Candidate. He's on record, he loves torture. He said it on the campaign trail. He could have been Orange Bernie and I would have refused to vote for him.