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Zed Shaw is Writing A Book Teaching Beginner Python

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Re: Zed Shaw is Writing A Book Teaching Beginner Python

#81

Post by zedshaw »

petercooper wrote: post #65

FWIW, the concept of getting people programming ASAP in order to learn has been sort of poo-pooed by findings in the ACM: http://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/45725-how-we-teach-intro... I'm on the fence. I see the music-style logic to picking things up and working on the practical stuff right away, but, hey, studies are studies.

Funny, you read that as saying, "Zed's wrong." I read it as, I may be right. For example:

> no one challenges KSC on the basic premise, that putting introductory students in the position of discovering information for themselves is a bad idea!

The article doesn't say, "Don't get programmers studying code right away." It also doesn't say they shouldn't work on problems.

It says that the constructivist approach to teaching by giving students very little direction on complex problems right way isn't effective. Instead the direct instruction method of having them work on directed problems to build initial capabilities is more effective.

This has been the position of the direct instruction school of education for a while now. In fact, if you actually RTFA they mention that the constructivist model of is the failing. If you then read the linked articles you'll find the same thing.

Not a single thing in that linked article supports what you've stated.

Re: Zed Shaw is Writing A Book Teaching Beginner Python

#82

Post by zedshaw »

swaroop wrote: post #76
zedshaw wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's great. It will be in the list of books to read next for sure, especially since it's free.

Zed, I've written a beginner's book called 'A Byte of Python', and I'd like to know your opinion about it - http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python FWIW, the background is that it has been under a Creative Commons license since 2004, it has had about half a million downloads/readers (guesstimate, of course), is used as a text book for introductory programming courses in at least 8 universities worldwide, and has been t…

Interesting, it does look like a decent book. Also, it looks like you've targeted Python 3. Seems well written so far based on what I've read in a few chapters.

I'm building a list of free books for people to move onto after they finish mine. I'll put yours in the list.

Re: Zed Shaw is Writing A Book Teaching Beginner Python

#83

Post by callahad »

zedshaw wrote: post #50
callahad wrote: post #2

I suggest reading the nascent PDF that he's posted, it's very good in some ways, less good in others, but if Zed keeps it up and is willing to have others help shape his voice, then this could end up as a very valuable project.

I'd like to know what you think is less good.

The items on my "less good" list are admittedly subjective, but might be worth considering as you continue to develop the text. And in this case, I mean "less good" as "not bad, but not yet great."

For instance, should you be using printf style formatting when string.format is is available by default in 2.6, Snow Leopard's default python?

A weaker argument could be made for importing print_function from __future__, but I don't believe the added complexity is worth it, even if it eliminates a special case.

In Exercise 0, you might want to stipulate a python version, since some intrepid readers will search out the "latest and greatest" python, and they will download 3.x unless explicitly told otherwise.

Beyond that, I think some of your prose could be improved. For instance, "Notice I use a text editor called vim. You shouldn’t use it, it’s too hard to use for you right now." may be a bit off-putting to someone completely new.

The statement after your listing, however, is perfect:

"If a programmer tells you to use vim or emacs tell them no. These editors are for when you are a better programmer. All you need right now is an editor that lets you put text into a file."

Re: Zed Shaw is Writing A Book Teaching Beginner Python

#84

Post by Tichy »

grncdr wrote: post #75
zedshaw wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually looking for a simple editor that works on all platforms, doesn't look totally like ass, and is easy to use. I'll then change things up so people just install that. Basically a GUI cross platform pico would be perfect.

I second gedit, just installed it on my Mac, and it doesn't look like complete ass. (It does however use GTK for file open dialogs etc. so that might put other people off?)

Hasn't Apple somehow killed GTK on Snow Leopard? There was something that made gvim stop working, so I had to switch to mvim. Sorry can't remember the details, but gedit might be hurt, too? Or was that just a MacPorts problem?

Re: Zed Shaw is Writing A Book Teaching Beginner Python

#85

Post by jules »

zedshaw wrote: post #49
fretlessjazz wrote: post #18

"If a programmer tells you to use vim or emacs tell them no. These editors are for when you are a better programmer. All you need right now is an editor that lets you put text into a file." Ha! When I started to program, everyone told me the opposite. After weeks of head scratching and spending more time learning editors than coding, I secretly switched to Pico. But man could I use the hell out of Pico.

I'm actually looking for a simple editor that works on all platforms, doesn't look totally like ass, and is easy to use. I'll then change things up so people just install that. Basically a GUI cross platform pico would be perfect.

I recommend Scite. It has syntax highlighting and runs the program and displays output when you press F5, and the UI is very similar to notepad.

Re: Zed Shaw is Writing A Book Teaching Beginner Python

#87

Post by earcar »

zedshaw wrote: post #49
fretlessjazz wrote: post #18

"If a programmer tells you to use vim or emacs tell them no. These editors are for when you are a better programmer. All you need right now is an editor that lets you put text into a file." Ha! When I started to program, everyone told me the opposite. After weeks of head scratching and spending more time learning editors than coding, I secretly switched to Pico. But man could I use the hell out of Pico.

I'm actually looking for a simple editor that works on all platforms, doesn't look totally like ass, and is easy to use. I'll then change things up so people just install that. Basically a GUI cross platform pico would be perfect.

What about Komodo Edit? http://www.activestate.com/komodo_edit/

Re: Zed Shaw is Writing A Book Teaching Beginner Python

#88

Post by zackola »

callahad wrote: post #83
zedshaw wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to know what you think is less good.

The items on my "less good" list are admittedly subjective, but might be worth considering as you continue to develop the text. And in this case, I mean "less good" as "not bad, but not yet great." For instance, should you be using printf style formatting when string.format is is available by default in 2.6, Snow Leopard's default python? A weaker argument could be made for importing print_function from __future__, b…

I think you should bite the bullet and recommend a few text editors on Windows, Mac and Linux. Or one cross platform one. Some poor bastard is going to end up wondering why test.py.doc isn't running - and I don't think it's fair to cast them off as too stupid to program for that.
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