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Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

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Re: Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

#81

Post by yaakov34 »

notoothpaste wrote: post #53
Spooky23 wrote: post #16

The japanese companies were pretty amazing in the commercial space. My employer had a few Fujitsu ultra portables in the circa 2007 timeframe. One of our internal customers mentioned to a salesguy that they needed a particular port in a particular location on the laptop, not expecting anything. Two weeks later, they Fedexed a loaner/prototype with the port. Really an amazing experience. We were buying 5-6 figure quan…

I wonder what their manufacturing processes are like, such that they could accommodate this kind of flexibility.

In most manufacturing, you have a prototype hall or floor where you have somewhat more general purpose/flexible machines with a lot of manual intervention to make small quantities of prototypes, and factories with automated machines set up to make the exact parts you need for your full production.

This was always my experience in electronics - you, as the development engineer, set up small-scale production (going from prototypes to EV or engineering validation articles, which are basically the final product produced by these manual/slow methods), and then manufacturing engineers work with you to transfer your processes to an automated assembly line making who knows how many units a minute.

It's not unusual to produce a special prototype in the small/experimental floor; I mean, Apple probably goes through hundreds (or whatever) of prototypes and test articles before releasing their next phone, and they are certainly not stopping their million-per-day manufacturing plants to make them. However, it does show impressive commitment to the customer on the part of Fujitsu.

Also, electronics is more cyclical than cars (3-year-old model may be completely different and useless compared to the current one), so it is common to produce everything in batches rather than "the Toyota way" with just-in-time. In other words, if a laptop model is sold for 2 years, the whole run may have been made in 6 months, and then you have that manufacturing equipment sitting idle while the next prototype is worked on, so you may have equipment and engineers to spare. Only a few of the highest-volume factories (e.g. Apple again, I assume) run at full capacity all the time.

Re: Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

#82

Post by notoothpaste »

lisivka wrote: post #77
notoothpaste wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to create a prototype with a port in a different location, they would need, at the very least, to produce a one-off motherboard PCB, and a one-off injection molded case. That they could justify doing so to produce near production quality results for a small order either indicates impressive manufacturing flexibility, or an inefficient manufacturing process.

Their process is implemented for flexibility first, then for mass production. Look at Toyota fabric [1]. Do you see lot of advanced robots to reprogram for each new model? [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg5RlapdEtE

So how is/was Fujitsu's laptop manufacturing tailored toward flexibility? I want the details. If all you can do is passive aggressively repeat vague ideas that were printed in mainstream management and manufacturing texts decades ago, don't respond at all. Nobody cares about or wants your input.

Re: Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

#83

Post by pjmlp »

pjmlp wrote: post #58
quanticle wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Toshiba has been my go to maker for the last 10 years or so because virtually everything they make "just works" on Linux. This is honestly a pretty shocking statement for me, because Toshiba has long been my go-to example for the worst-case scenario of installing Linux on laptops. I have never once had a Toshiba laptop that "just worked" out of the box with Linux. Whether it was power management, display drivers, or…

Toshiba was my first laptop back in 1999. One of the reasons I went with them was that besides being famous for making good laptops, was that they had a dedicated Linux web site and forum for supporting Linux on their laptops. While most other OEMs couldn't care less.

Extra info as I cannot edit my comment any longer.

They still have it, here is the German version

http://www.toshiba.de/generic/np-linux-support/

Re: Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

#84

Post by janneklouman »

mikekchar wrote: post #46
Ezhik wrote: post #2

What's the laptop market like in Japan anyway? I don't really know a lot about it, but it's always interesting to see these random Panasonic or Fujitsu laptops not sold here, or those rare Japan-exclusive experimental ThinkPads.

As others have said, Apple has a very strong presence in Japan. If I go to an electronics store, usually half the models on display are Apple. Panasonic and Fujitsu pretty much rule the desktop with bizarre television/computer fusions. Imagine a TV about the thickness of one of the old plasma TVs. It usually has a stand, but I think you can also wall mount it. You can watch and record TV on them, so they are basicall…

I'd like to add NEC to your list (surprised no one is mentioning them). They completely dominated the Japanese PC market during the 80's and 90's, and even though the've been declining heavily since, it's still a strong brand in Japan holding about a fifth of the market share.

Re: Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

#85

Post by chx »

I had a Panasonic CF-Y5. As one review had it: "The exterior design of the machine's casing is reminiscent of a Sherman tank cross-bred with a 1970s sports saloon, while the lid opens with the grace of a bank vault door."

It was incredibly lightweight (1.53kg at 14" with an optical drive!) and built like, well, a Sherman tank. It wasn't only the casing reminiscing it. In a weird little apartment overcrowded by all startup coders attending a conference someone accidentally kicked it off the table and yet it was completely OK.

I could only afford it because the CF-Y7 just got out and for a while I couldn't afford them and then the B10 was no longer so incredibly tough (although the current models do mention a drop test and a pressurized test). Anyways, I am back to ThinkPads ever since. The keyboard is much better but the weight is worse. I am currently using a T420s upgraded with an 1080p screen and waiting for the Retro to happen. Our last hope.

Re: Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

#86

Post by yaakov34 »

notoothpaste wrote: post #82
lisivka wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their process is implemented for flexibility first, then for mass production. Look at Toyota fabric [1]. Do you see lot of advanced robots to reprogram for each new model? [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg5RlapdEtE

So how is/was Fujitsu's laptop manufacturing tailored toward flexibility? I want the details. If all you can do is passive aggressively repeat vague ideas that were printed in mainstream management and manufacturing texts decades ago, don't respond at all. Nobody cares about or wants your input.

And you think that someone from Fujitsu (where it's 8 in the evening, BTW) is going to jump in here and explain their factory layout to you, because you've put your foot down? The best general answer you are going to get is "They made it using whatever process they used to make prototypes. Probably". You want names, ranks, and serial numbers - try writing to Fujitsu. Preferably while being more polite.

Re: Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

#87

Post by amiga-workbench »

Tepix wrote: post #69

I bought a Toshiba Libretto L1 back in 2001 via the Internet (using translation services) and had it shipped to Germany. It was a fantastic form factor: A super wide 10" 1280x600 display (143dpi) which was so wide that it left enough room for a decent keyboard. The CPU was a Transmeta Crusoe 600Mhz which was, unfortunately, the bottleneck of the system. One other highlight I remember about this machine: Despite not h…

I've got a few Libretto's kicking around, they are fantastic machines, full pentium class UMPC's

I've also got a GPRS modem for my 100CT and it makes a nice portable IRC machine.

http://i.imgur.com/IUp4U7p.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SuMjceM.jpg

Re: Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

#88

Post by notoothpaste »

yaakov34 wrote: post #81
notoothpaste wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what their manufacturing processes are like, such that they could accommodate this kind of flexibility.

In most manufacturing, you have a prototype hall or floor where you have somewhat more general purpose/flexible machines with a lot of manual intervention to make small quantities of prototypes, and factories with automated machines set up to make the exact parts you need for your full production. This was always my experience in electronics - you, as the development engineer, set up small-scale production (going fro…

Thank you for your sincere and informed response.

I understand that EEs create countless prototypes over the course of the development of a product, and that development PCBs need not (especially for debugging purposes) bear any physical resemblance to the finished product.

What is impressive to me is that Toshiba could:

Redesign and test a PCB

Set up a manufacturing process for pick and place etc

Create an injection-molded case

Put it all together

Deliver all of this, on a whim, to a customer in the single digit quantities

And apparently do so to similar standards as their mass-produced machines

Did they just eat the cost of the most expensive PCB masks and injection molds, or is there something more interesting going on behind the scenes? That's what I want to know.

EDIT: I tripped the (whatever the fuck random sequence of characters you need to bypass the filters) filter and now I can't post any more for a few hours, otherwise I'd happily call all of you out as the ignorant yuppie douchebags you are... no, worse, the 19 year old CS majors pretending to be ignorant adult yuppie douchebags.

tl;dr I just wanted the chance to hear from experienced engineers. Please fuck off if you don't know what you're talking about, for the sake of anyone that wants to ask a remotely relevant question on this braindead hellhole.

Re: Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

#89

Post by Oletros »

CountSessine wrote: post #40
dismantlethesun wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can market share dramatically swing between 30% and 60% like it's doing in this chart? Is this bad data? Is the market expanding & contracting so greatly that existing users are a minority of future marketshare?

Most android phone owners don't use it as a smartphone - it's a cheap feature phone they buy at the phone store and they just use it to make calls on. The number of true 'smartphone users' in the android world who are using them to browse the web and download apps is comparable to or less than the number of iOS device owners.

> Most android phone owners don't use it as a smartphone - it's a cheap feature phone they buy at the phone store and they just use it to make calls on.

Do you have a source for that?

Re: Whatever happened to Japanese laptops?

#90

Post by kw71 »

notoothpaste wrote: post #88
yaakov34 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most manufacturing, you have a prototype hall or floor where you have somewhat more general purpose/flexible machines with a lot of manual intervention to make small quantities of prototypes, and factories with automated machines set up to make the exact parts you need for your full production. This was always my experience in electronics - you, as the development engineer, set up small-scale production (going fro…

Thank you for your sincere and informed response. I understand that EEs create countless prototypes over the course of the development of a product, and that development PCBs need not (especially for debugging purposes) bear any physical resemblance to the finished product. What is impressive to me is that Toshiba could: Redesign and test a PCB Set up a manufacturing process for pick and place etc Create an injection…

Some of the external ports in my lifebook are simply mounted on the housing and connected to the boards by cable assemblies, so:

They may have stuck the needed connector on a wire and used an NC mill to make an appropriate cutout from an existing housing part.

It is literally less than 1 hour to design and tape-out a inch-square pc board to accomodate a connector and cable termination. I am a little guy and have to wait a week and pay five bucks to have this manufactured. Fujitsu probably had this done the morning after a solution to the request was devised and approved.

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