Eve: Programming designed for humans • Hacker News Board

Re: Eve: Programming designed for humans

#81

Post by ronjouch » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:30 PM UTC

rifung wrote: post #75

ibdknox wrote: post #2

Hi All! Many of the folks here have been following us for a long time and we're really excited to finally pull everything together to show you all where our research has taken us. Eve is still very early [1], but it shows a lot of promise and I think this community especially will be interested in the ideas we've put together. As many of you were also big Light Table supporters, we wanted to talk about Eve's relation…

Hi, I apologize if this is off topic but I just thought you should know the site does not display properly in my browser. Maybe this is just an unsupported use case but I think it's because the browser window isn't wide enough so the text on the left gets cut off. I have my browser window filling up half of the screen. EDIT: works now!

Same thing, Firefox with 960px width (half a 1080p monitor)

Re: Eve: Programming designed for humans

#82

Post by computerphage » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:30 PM UTC

CGamesPlay wrote: post #76

mkozlows wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your defense of literate program gives, as a defense, what I would think of as an attack on literate programming: Take this strawman for instance, how could you find the bug in the following code without the accompanying comment? // Print every other line of the array to the console for (var i = 0; i Because the problem with that is that now you have two competing sources of authority -- the comment, and the code.…

Wait, what? The code is a translation of a requirement to an implementation. The comment describes the requirement. The only problem with competing sources of authority is when the comment disagrees with the real requirements of the programmer/business/whatever. As another example, what if it were a method name instead of a comment? function printEveryOtherLine(myStringArray) { for (var i = 0; i Is your argument that…

This is the almost the same example. Function names also don't execute. The parent's point was that if the code has been tested or was considered working, and then you noticed this in the code, you should think twice before "fixing" the behavior to match the comment or function name.

Re: Eve: Programming designed for humans

#83

Post by wyager » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:31 PM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #50

zenobit256 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is this more "humane"? Programming languages by design are for human consumption. In what way is this "special" or "designed" for them?

It does more of the heavy lifting automatically. For example, rather than having to explicitly build a data structure to keep track of events that have happened, or build some message bus to receive and react to them, Eve allows you to express the fact that you want to react to them, and its runtime takes care of the rest. How well this scales and remains available, well, that's an implementation challenge, but the u…

What you describe is normally handled by any number of perfectly good libraries. The selling point here seems to be "we've thrown a bunch of random libraries together in the standard library", which isn't a super compelling argument to me.

Re: Eve: Programming designed for humans

#84

Post by nercht12 » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

Seems to me it will have some good uses. The promo of it being "more human" is a stretch, yes, esp. given the actual programming language didn't look any friendlier than any other language imo (e.g. worldhttp://programming.witheve.com/deepdives/whateveis.html "Being explicitly designed for data transformation, there are somethings that Eve will particularly excel at..." (after beta stage, of course)

That said, it'll be interesting to see what software people decide to create with it and where this system excels.

Re: Eve: Programming designed for humans

#85

Post by edem » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

LightTable was not updated for a year now. I actually backed it and now the IDE seems abandoned never to reach 1.0. I've lost trust in the developers and I won't recommend Eve to anyone because of the fear that they will abandon it as well and start chasing the next big dream.

Re: Eve: Programming designed for humans

#86

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

ibdknox wrote: post #2

Hi All! Many of the folks here have been following us for a long time and we're really excited to finally pull everything together to show you all where our research has taken us. Eve is still very early [1], but it shows a lot of promise and I think this community especially will be interested in the ideas we've put together. As many of you were also big Light Table supporters, we wanted to talk about Eve's relation…

I really enjoyed you demo.

Every time I delve into Xerox PARC and ETHZ papers, along side my own experience, I envision the days when our programming environments would be all like this, even for systems programming like tasks.

All the best for the road ahead.

Re: Eve: Programming designed for humans

#87

Post by ifdefdebug » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC

CGamesPlay wrote: post #76

mkozlows wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your defense of literate program gives, as a defense, what I would think of as an attack on literate programming: Take this strawman for instance, how could you find the bug in the following code without the accompanying comment? // Print every other line of the array to the console for (var i = 0; i Because the problem with that is that now you have two competing sources of authority -- the comment, and the code.…

Wait, what? The code is a translation of a requirement to an implementation. The comment describes the requirement. The only problem with competing sources of authority is when the comment disagrees with the real requirements of the programmer/business/whatever. As another example, what if it were a method name instead of a comment? function printEveryOtherLine(myStringArray) { for (var i = 0; i Is your argument that…

Well no, I think the argument is that this kind of comment gets outdated easily, so if the program works as expected, the comment is probably outdated (new requirement, the program was changed to print every line, forgetting about the comment). If the program does not work as expected, then it's a bug and the comment is still valid.

This does not happen in your function name example: if the program requirement changed to print every line, no sane programmer would change the code in this function, they'd write a new function printEveryLine() instead and use that. So you can be pretty sure this is a bug.

Re: Eve: Programming designed for humans

#88

Post by komali2 » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

ronjouch wrote: post #81

rifung wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I apologize if this is off topic but I just thought you should know the site does not display properly in my browser. Maybe this is just an unsupported use case but I think it's because the browser window isn't wide enough so the text on the left gets cut off. I have my browser window filling up half of the screen. EDIT: works now!

Same thing, Firefox with 960px width (half a 1080p monitor)

Chrome here 1080p at 960px. Ubuntu. http://i.imgur.com/PxLlDkP.png

EDIT: Also: base.js:7035 Blocked a frame with origin "https://www.youtube.com" from accessing a frame with origin "http://programming.witheve.com". The frame requesting access has a protocol of "https", the frame being accessed has a protocol of "http". Protocols must match.

EDIT2: Why does opening the chrome console fix the text cut off issue.... this is so weird.

Re: Eve: Programming designed for humans

#89

Post by choward » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

computerphage wrote: post #82

CGamesPlay wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? The code is a translation of a requirement to an implementation. The comment describes the requirement. The only problem with competing sources of authority is when the comment disagrees with the real requirements of the programmer/business/whatever. As another example, what if it were a method name instead of a comment? function printEveryOtherLine(myStringArray) { for (var i = 0; i Is your argument that…

This is the almost the same example. Function names also don't execute. The parent's point was that if the code has been tested or was considered working, and then you noticed this in the code, you should think twice before "fixing" the behavior to match the comment or function name.

Then why even name anything? Are you saying I should just name my functions and variables a, b, c, d, etc.?

Re: Eve: Programming designed for humans

#90

Post by grzm » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

ibdknox wrote: post #79

grzm wrote: post #30

I think there's potentially a lot of ways we can improve our programming environments. I like moon shots, people willing to explore new ways that are unconventional, approaching problems in different ways. I've followed Light Table and have been looking forward to seeing what Chris and friends come up with for Eve. That said, this is feeling very grandiose. I'd like to understand more clearly where they see Eve being…

Check out our followup on that : http://programming.witheve.com/deepdives/whateveis.html 1) Eve is amazing at graph algorithms, not so much at writing quicksort. At the same time, you don't need to write quicksort in Eve - it has all of the things you'd get from something like a SQL database. In general, anything requiring strict sequential order will be just ok right now, but it turns out actually very few things do…

Thanks for the follow-up. Indeed, the link you provided is exactly what I was asking for. (And I see that it's there in your initial post as well.) Cheers!