Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#81

Post by synecdoche » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

I find it quite discouraging to see so many harsh sentiments towards the developer. Everything that he did and the publicly stated reasons behind them are plausible. In my view the data so far indicate that he played by the rules. In particular he did a charitable thing to pay somebody else’s Developer Program Membership and donate a device, which there is no rule against.

Apple on its side have followed its script which also seems to be entirely plausible and in good faith. However, their course of action does apparently not cover the corner case of contacting all account owners to linked accounts before shutting them down. The agreement allows for third party account payment albeit with some slight inconveniences. In addition, the rules for account linking, and it’s very existence is hidden from the developer party, so (s)he has no responsibility to relate to it, or whatever else is outside of the agreement.

People may not like the style the developer has done his part. Nevertheless his story is plausible and consistent, however improbable. Recording phone calls without consent of the other party may be legal in his country; I know it is in mine.

Apple has been caught with its pants down but because of the immense power imbalance, the developer, trough no fault of his own, is set to suffer with no recourse, unless there are stings attached. I find it infuriating that he has to do anything at all to set straight a problem he did not cause.

From this point whatever bad publicity Apple has incurred they have only them selves to blame. They should at least reverse the account lock, and for reestablishing whatever lost public confidence at a minimum produce an apology for the inconvenience.

This is how I understand it from what I have read so far. If any new indications appear to make me change my mind I may do so.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#82

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:42 PM UTC

forgottenpass wrote: post #73

eridius wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "I understand why you linked these accounts and that my relative committed fraud" is not the same thing as being submissive and rolling over, and your portrayal of Americans is rather offensive.

It's an unreasonable level of deference to a business process that we now understand can err. And that even if it didn't err in this case, we now know it to be designed to err. It unconditionally resolves an ambiguity into the direction that makes their other work easier, regardless of if the data is less correct. And that even if their contracts of adhesion makes the err legally (or at least bureaucratically) robust…

> It unconditionally resolves an ambiguity into the direction that makes their other work easier, regardless of if the data is less correct.

What the hell are you talking about?

Apple spent at least two years investigating this issue, and was in repeated contact with the developer committing fraud. It's clear that this process is designed to be as conservative as possible, because if it wasn't, it wouldn't take two years to finally hit the point of closing the account.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#83

Post by Crosseye_Jack » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:51 PM UTC

eridius wrote: post #79

Crosseye_Jack wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Others have said that it's Apple Blackmailing him "Post a blog post if you want your account back" and I can see their logic. I'm not saying Apple did blackmail him, just stating what others on this site have said do me. Personally listening to the call I would of made the blog post, not because I thought Apple were blackmailing me but because I can see Apple's Point of View in this matter and that it had stirred t…

> But it had been pointed out to me that the blog post being a condition of having the account reinstated (and Apple ideally wanting to look over a draft of that post first) could be taken as Apple blackmailing him and its hard to argue against that point. No it's not. Nothing about this even comes close to blackmail. Blackmail is demanding payment under threat of doing something bad. This is the complete opposite. T…

I was looking for a good counter point to the argument as it didn't feel like blackmail to me, thank you for some insight. After posting I started feeling that this felt more like an "out of court settlement" to me then anything else. Apple had proposed a way to put this behind them and move on (not a good comparison I know that is why I didn't go back and add it after the post).

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#84

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:56 PM UTC

Crosseye_Jack wrote: post #83

eridius wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it had been pointed out to me that the blog post being a condition of having the account reinstated (and Apple ideally wanting to look over a draft of that post first) could be taken as Apple blackmailing him and its hard to argue against that point. No it's not. Nothing about this even comes close to blackmail. Blackmail is demanding payment under threat of doing something bad. This is the complete opposite. T…

I was looking for a good counter point to the argument as it didn't feel like blackmail to me, thank you for some insight. After posting I started feeling that this felt more like an "out of court settlement" to me then anything else. Apple had proposed a way to put this behind them and move on (not a good comparison I know that is why I didn't go back and add it after the post).

Actually I think an "out of court settlement" is a reasonable analogy.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#85

Post by pkamb » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #4

This guy has shown quite a talent for self-sabotage. Apple was willing to reinstate him if he'd undo some of the PR damage he'd created by spelling out that he shared the credit card with someone, and that maybe that's not the best idea. Instead, he was enjoying the spotlight so much, he used the opportunity to escalate further, even publishing his phone call with Apple (illegal on one side of that conversation at le…

He only published the new blog post and the phone call AFTER Apple put out a new press release completely sliming him. He was waiting for his draft blog post to be reviewed, and they go to the press behind his back.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#86

Post by pkamb » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 7:01 PM UTC

edko wrote: post #22

This whole thing has taught me a lesson. I initially sided with the weaker side because I own a copy of Dash, and it is great software, and because one tends to side with the underdog. After listening to the recording of the conversation, my feeling is that Apple is handling this in a very fair and professional way, and that I was too quick to take sides. I think it is not unreasonable to assume that: same credit car…

The phone conversation was reasonable. Kapeli thought it was reasonable. He sent a draft blog post in for review.

THEN, after this phone conversation, they go to the press with a PR release that paints him as a scammer (and doesn't mention any of the circumstances from the phone call). This happens while Kapeli is waiting for his blog post to be reviewed.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#87

Post by mikeash » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 7:03 PM UTC

gshulegaard wrote: post #38

bnycum wrote: post #17

There feels like no right side in this story. * Apple terminated both accounts because of fraudulent activity, but only one account was contacted to let them know of this activity. * Kapeli shared financial information and test devices with this other account, whether it was a relative or not. * Apple said "Hey, write a post telling the whole story and all will be cleared. Just don't say we were at fault." * Kapeli a…

Generally, I don't get this: * Kapeli shared financial information and test devices with this other account, whether it was a relative or not. The assumption here is that for some reason a credit card number and device identifiers (unclear where they come from...but maybe mac address?) are enough for Apple to "link" accounts. I contest this for the same reason I think someone knowing my birthday and social security n…

Seems to me that everything up to (and including) the initial ban was relatively sensible. You don't need absolute proof that the two accounts really are linked, it's reasonable enough to see something that indicates they likely are and then take action based on that.

Where it fell apart was failing to account for the possibility that they got it wrong. They should have notified both accounts and explained why both were being banned for the actions of one, then allowed a way to demonstrate than the two weren't really linked in order to reinstate the other account.

Unfortunately, this is pretty typical for how Apple operates the App Store. "We're never wrong, get lost" seems to be their motto. For example, for a long time you couldn't even appeal when your app was rejected. If it was rejected incorrectly, then all you could do is try to submit again and hope you got a different reviewer that time.

The App Store is a direct descendant of the iTunes Music Store, which originally existed to serve a handful of big music publishers. In many ways, it hasn't adapted well to serving a million small developers.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#88

Post by mikeash » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 7:05 PM UTC

fizzbatter wrote: post #33

Weird that i find out about this here - wonder if he's able to send an email to Mac Store purchasers like myself. Regardless, i migrated my license, and all seems to be working now. Glad the issue didn't impact me too negatively, and i hope this is true for most of his customers.

Apple tries to keep developers and their users as separate as possible. Developers only get aggregate stats from Apple, they get no personal information on the individuals, and there's no way to send a message through Apple either. The only way to communicate something to your whole user base is to put it in an update's release notes and hope everybody reads it. And of course that doesn't work if you've been banned from the store!

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#89

Post by pkamb » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 7:05 PM UTC

funkydata wrote: post #8

joeberon wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What actually happened: 1. Guy publishes good paid app and gets a tonne of good reviews 2. He helps out a relative by buying an apple developer account for them, giving them a machine to test with 3. Relative also uses same "com.kapeli.*" bundle ID 4. Relative decides to buy 1000 fraudulent reviews 5. Apple tells the relative to stop posting fraud reviews, who refuses 6. Apple terminates both developers accounts sinc…

The accounts were linked (same devices, same credit card number): https://london.kapeli.com/downloads/Apple_Call.m4a (edit: direct link to the phone call with the Apple representative) As much as they tend to piss me off for other things. I don't see any wrongdoing from them. It's like accusing them of cutting off the payments to a bakery that operates from the same bank account to that of a drug dealer. Also that ki…

They weren't linked in the UI. They were "linked" in Apple's backend system according to secret heuristics. The dev had no idea they were linked, so I hate seeing people stating "the accounts were linked" as if that's something he should have known or anticipated.

How many random devs and accounts have been secretly "linked" to my account? I have no idea.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#90

Post by pkamb » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 7:09 PM UTC

Crosseye_Jack wrote: post #9

ubertaco wrote: post #2

I've only just run across this. It looks like the story here is: 1. Guy publishes paid app to iTunes 2. App is really good, gets a ton of good reviews 3. Apple decides those reviews must be fraudulent, and pulls his app from the store and tells the guy he has to publicly admit that he committed review fraud to get his app reinstated. 4. People who have bought the app can't download it, guy can't do anything to make h…

In addition to what joeberon said. After this happened Apple were prepared to welcome him back to the App Store after Apple had learnt of all the facts. Kapei had gone public about this account nuke (which at times is the only way to raise the issue, I remember the times I've had to deal with Googles Support for the play store shudder ) and while he didn't know all the details on why his account was nuked the issue h…

> Now in my opinion that is a fair request and if I were in his shoes I would of done just that because I can see how Apple could of tied the two accounts together.

He did do that though. He wrote a [blog post draft][1] that mentioned the "linked account" and sent it in to them for review.

Rather than respond to or approve his blog post draft email, Apple went behind his back to the press with statements that omitted all of the "linked account" circumstances and painted him as a legit scammer.

[1]: https://kapeli.com/apple_draft