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Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

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Re: Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

#81

I have my own theory. The idea is that there are lots, lots and lots of tiny unspoken things which could make huge difference in long run. And those who successful doesn't necessary know their own tiny things they got right. Let's say there are two persons A and B who is training in chess. Person A trained for X hours and became chess master. Person B trained for 10X hours and didn't get even close to master level. T…

Absolutely, and this is right at the center of Ericsson's theory of excellence, learning and deliberate practice [1]. He calls this 'mental representations', and together with the 'brain's flexibility' they form the 2 pillars of his theory. The rest of the theory (e.g., deliberate practice) stems from these 2, that is, how can we actually change our brain to record in our long-term memory the most and best (pre-computed) mental representations. That's what distinguishes an expert: the quantity and quality of the mental representations.

The method involves 6 factors that have to be adapted to the specific skill:

* 1. having specific goals

* 2. getting slightly out of your comfort zone

* 3. focus and concentration during practice (ideally close to 1 hour)

* 4. feedback

* 5. practising a sufficiently developed human activity

* 6. having a teacher/coach (and keep getting a better one, adjusted to your current level)

* 7. (additional point: starting early in life)

Point 5 is the difference between practising, say, the violin (for which we have literally centuries of the best performers teaching the following generations, always improving, up to a near threshold) to practising say skateboard which is a few decades old of serious practice or any recent boardgame, say. No one knows what are the best tactics and strategies. Even sports: consider how many world records from some years ago would not qualify you for the olympics today. Naturally if you're not learning the violin but something else less developed, you just try to find the best current method and mental representations, and discover better ones to gain a decisive edge on your competion (with perhaps less practice time or talent (eg, height)).

I also agree with your point on metacognition, but that's an even broader subject to discuss.

[1] https://smile.amazon.com/Peak-Secrets-New-Science-Expertise/...

Re: Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

#82
post #77

In case you weren't paying attention while reading this otherwise fascinating article ... practice has little positive influence on: 1. Academic achievement, 2. Computer science shyte, and 3. Sales Fuuuuuuck this. I'm off to the beach.

Saying that practice has little influence on computer science skills just sounds wrong to me.

I don't know any computer scientist who looks at the code he wrote a few years ago and won't think of mich better ways to do things.

What is that if it's not an increase in skills due to practice?

Re: Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

#83
post #77

In case you weren't paying attention while reading this otherwise fascinating article ... practice has little positive influence on: 1. Academic achievement, 2. Computer science shyte, and 3. Sales Fuuuuuuck this. I'm off to the beach.

[deleted]

Re: Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

#84

I have my own theory. The idea is that there are lots, lots and lots of tiny unspoken things which could make huge difference in long run. And those who successful doesn't necessary know their own tiny things they got right. Let's say there are two persons A and B who is training in chess. Person A trained for X hours and became chess master. Person B trained for 10X hours and didn't get even close to master level. T…

[deleted]

Re: Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

#85

I have my own theory. The idea is that there are lots, lots and lots of tiny unspoken things which could make huge difference in long run. And those who successful doesn't necessary know their own tiny things they got right. Let's say there are two persons A and B who is training in chess. Person A trained for X hours and became chess master. Person B trained for 10X hours and didn't get even close to master level. T…

Great comment. One thing I believe is worth mentioning is that even if a person practices to find this "tiny thing" in their heads and fix it, they may not find it for a very long time. Some people can practice something for decades and still not be professional with whatever they are doing. They could also figure one "tiny thing" out but their may be many more "tiny things" to uncover after that.

Re: Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

#86
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I've been playing the kaval (an end blown flute) for more than 10 years and there have been many times when I'd hit the wall. I also play a bit of guitar, but kaval has been much harder to master. I think that this is because, when compared to guitar, kaval has a lot more independent variables, such as breathing, embouchure(lip shape), throat, how hard you push the instrument to your lips, how your hands take…

I have some friends in the dance business. Even (especially!) the top professionals routinely hire various coaches to see if they'll catch something missed. They'll also regularly go right back to the basics of how to take a step. They'll be in the studio just walking back and forth. What's weird about dance is what looks natural and elegant to the observer is a rather contorted and sometimes painful position for the…

I have been practicing the Japanese martial art of Aikido for 25 years or so, and also kenjutsu from 20. It's really interesting to observe different methods of training, and in my teaching to try and work out how best to pass this on.

As a generalisation (take with pinch of salt), the classic Japanese method does not have lots of explanation - teacher demonstrates, teacher works with student, can be quite hands on with corrections to body posture etc, but not typically lots of explanation. There are also exercises shown to develop body conditioning, and awareness. These include exercises such as standing, or slow deep walking, which initially are not obvious as to what is happening and why. The students who take these on trust and go off and do them in their own time are the ones who make progress. There is also quite a lot of focus on "mitori keiko" - training by watching, so training people to become more observant about what they are seeing and then be able to take that understanding or images and apply it to their own training.

Western students tend to require more explanation. They ask "why should I do this (apparently boring) exercise?". There can be a tendency to pursue acquisition of technique rather than fundamentals. They are less likely to take things on trust and work it out for themselves. Of course there are plenty of great Western practitioners and plenty of poor Japanese ones.

As a teacher I found my tendency was to try and explain too much. I find I get better results when working with people and making them feel things. I have seen my main teacher in Japan work on someone for 5-10 minutes and extract out them very signficiant improvement in that time - and he has done that to me. He can give people a taste for a new level and inspire them, but the challenge then is to go off and do the personal work to really own that new level or those insites. That is a goal for me to be able to do the same for my students.

My main teacher in UK was a contemporary dancer for his working life, and with his contacts etc has inspired quite a few dancers to come to the dojo. It has been interesting for me to work with them over the years, and understand how varied dance training can be. Some dance training seems to be more about the externals - make a move look a certain way, without worrying about the internal mechanics of the body. And yet of course other training is at a deeper level, training awareness. I realised over time the distinct difference between someone who is very flexible, and yet can feel relatively "hard" - just due to their background and the focus of their training to that point.

I found Josh Waitzkin's book on learning about his experiences as a chess prodigy and then learning and competing at Taiji Push Hands to highest levels. He writes about deepening his awareness, and also the sheer time spent in practising and analysing his techniques and failures etc.

Re: Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

#87
"When the student is ready the teacher will appear" To me it means that you:

- cultivate genuine curiosity

- You can voluntarily leave your ego apart

- You are good observing

- Not afraid to ask, when reaching certain level some people are afraid to ask others, fearing of being perceived weaker.

Then you start learning those 'unspoken' things mentioned in other comments, also you become more open to mimic what other 'masters' do. I think is related with mirror neurons, and that saying that you become the average of those you have around. I agree hitting walls doesn't make perfect.

Re: Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

#88
Thats refinement versus improvement. Practice requires understanding, blindly copying and refining is always limited. "Hitting a wall" is like brain neural network stuck at local optimum, which requires forgetting and relearning.

Lets take example with Sudoku: if you know the basics(marking candidates and eliminating rows/columns), you can solve easy puzzles with practice only, but you'll be stuck solving mid-level puzzles. Mid-level puzzles require intuitive understanding of column-row exclusion(where X number candidates in a block are exclusively on one row or column they exclude X from entire row or column), but aren't sufficient for solving high-level puzzles. High-level play requires knowledge of subsets, X-wings,XY chains,coloring, etc to solve the hardest puzzles(and practicing doesn't help, it requires intuitive understanding to find such patterns).

Re: Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. I'm a guitarist, and have been for over 30 years. I'm good, but not REALLY good, and I hit a wall in terms of technical ability / speed a long time ago - after about 5 years of playing. Nothing I did improved my speed and I didn't have the accuracy of a Malmsteen or MacAlpine, despite practicing religiously for hours at a time. I thought I had a speed limit and that was that - everyone I consulted felt th…

Is this the pick slanting technique you're talking about? http://troygrady.com/2015/01/08/the-difference-between-picks... Do you remember which video it was that made you "get it"? I'd like to watch it too!

Yeah, it's all Troy Grady; If you've watched "Cracking The Code" - the entire series, then basically, that was me, aside from me not getting the idea. I'm about the same age as Troy, FTR. The problems I had (particularly playing things such as from Tony MacAlpine's first album) all stem from not being able to get out from "beneath" the strings, and Troy's clear marshalling of all those ideas into a coherent method have opened the door to at least having another go. When I get time to practice - and that shouldn't be underestimated in terms of time - I can make progress, having already been able to play things I couldn't manage in the last 30 despite my lack of time and physical ability to play for long periods now.

Re: Practice Doesn't Make Perfect

#90

The Sports Gene already reduced my confidence in Ericsson's studies in particular. They were not very extensive and there was effectively no control group. An important thing to remember, though, is that these things are really, really hard to study. The meta-analysis is likely to be negative information in how accurate it is. "deliberate practice" is not a valid term, you can create a whole new field to figure out w…

> Genetics and hard work are ... inferior to information

I have never seen it put better.

The Soviet Union had a stranglehold on chess for almost 70 years until its collapse in the nineties. Then information fled with grandmasters to the west and the present bloom in talent began. Westerners began to regularly defeat soviet players. An Indian, then a Norwegian became world champion. Before then, it was a small miracle to defeat a soviet player. Reason? Information.

My personal experience: I played chess with a lot of frustration and little improvement for over a decade until I began reading 'honest' books written by Soviet trainers. That was I began to see progress.I gained approximately 200 elo in one year.(I would estimate that 90% of chess books for intermediate players are crap, some of these are deliberately misleading hence the 'honest' term)

Genetics and hard work are vastly inferior to information

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