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Vector is now called Riot

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Re: Vector is now called Riot

#81

Post by kuschku »

mxuribe wrote: post #73
kuschku wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could just use IRC with quassel + quassel-webserver, and get basically all of the same, but with an actual open protocol. Which actually has support.

Actually matrix - the protocol upon which vector and now riot depend - is an open protocol; reference here: http://matrix.org/docs/spec/ And then of course, there are the matrix bridges to IRC, etc. Admittedly although i have been using vector clients AND have installed my own personal synapse server, i have no experience using/supporting the various matrix bridges, so can't speak to their quality. That being said, i…

> you might want to take a look at matrix (the protocol), and suggest improvements; we all stand to benefit from your (and the community's) suggestions.

My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code.

Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up with even more competing standards.

You don’t even believe yourself you’ll be able to actually replace the ecosystem of IRC and so on yourself, so there will always be competing standards, and Matrix and IRC will never bridge natively.

IRC, on the other hand, will reach feature parity with Matrix over time, which would be faster if you’d instead work on IRC.

For IRC, currently only 3 useful clients exist where the user has the same features as if they’d run on Matrix.

In the end, we’ll have to build hacky bridges the other way around, too, and end up with more developer time spent on interoperation than useful features, and people will continue using Slack.

So, my suggestion: Just give up, and help improve things.

Rewriting everything just creates a worse result for everyone.

EDIT: I can’t answer right now (you are submitting too fast – because of the downvotes, I assume), so I’ll answer inline:

> Regarding "Who is working on bouncers in IRC networks, push notifications, etc?"

> Well, the IRCv3 Working Group is. How to ask for previous logs, how to handle push notifications in the future, how to integrate seemless bouncers is what they’re doing, and some networks already have seemless bouncers integrated (most notably Snoonet).

> Regarding "Forking doesn’t fork the community"

> That is true for file formats, but not true for chat systems. For a chat system to work, it needs critical mass. IRC still has that, Matrix doesn’t (otherwise Matrix wouldn’t even build a Matrix-to-IRC bridge).

> Trying to split the community will just make things worse there.

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#82

Post by Arathorn »

kuschku wrote: post #71
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riot is based on Matrix. If you scrolled down, it would tell you that it's got strong crypto, you can run your own servers, it's got really good cross-protocol bridges, and a ton of other stuff. And it's totally free, save the cost of running your own server if you choose to do so.

> it's got really good cross-protocol bridges With that you mean "a worse IRC bridge than Slack"? Every user and dev of IRC clients and servers I’ve talked to in the past weeks has only complained about Matrix’ bridge.

interesting - what is the precise issue?

The main difference is that Matrix acts effectively as a bouncer, bouncing all the different clients into IRC, rather than a bridge - unlike Slack's bridge which is just a single bot.

We're aware that we haven't enabled membership list syncing into Matrix yet from IRC (due to performance issues on synapse), but otherwise it should be pretty good.

More fact, less FUD please? :)

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#84

Post by Arathorn »

kuschku wrote: post #81
mxuribe wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually matrix - the protocol upon which vector and now riot depend - is an open protocol; reference here: http://matrix.org/docs/spec/ And then of course, there are the matrix bridges to IRC, etc. Admittedly although i have been using vector clients AND have installed my own personal synapse server, i have no experience using/supporting the various matrix bridges, so can't speak to their quality. That being said, i…

> you might want to take a look at matrix (the protocol), and suggest improvements; we all stand to benefit from your (and the community's) suggestions. My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code. Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up with even more competing standards. You don’t even believe yourself you’ll be able to actually replace the ecosys…

Occasionally you need to re-baseline or you risk getting mired fighting backwards compatibility and the limitations of the original design. Just like Git "rewrote" Subversion. Or clang "rewrote" gcc. Or PNG "rewrote" GIF.

It's incredibly shortsighted to assume that attempts to create new projects that overlap with old ones are are splitting dev effort and harm overall progress.

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#85

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

kuschku wrote: post #78
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IRC bots are a hack, and so much is provided by extensions, that there's no guarantee that your client will support basic features. CAP Account is just that: an extension. It's not inherent to the protocol, and it shows. And I didn't say the present bridges were perfect yet. The project is still a ways from completion.

> It's not inherent to the protocol, and it shows. IRC extensions are supported by over 90% of clients already, and provide exactly that. In contrast to XMPP is IRC actually renewing itself in production. http://IRCv3.net/ EDIT: I can’t answer you right now (you are submitting too fast), so here is my answer inline: > I’ll show the list of extensions both supported by every modern client, and each of the networks you…

XMPP is radically different from IRC. And I don't know about you, but I don't see a lot those extensions in use on actually servers (freenode, efnet, quakenet, etc).

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#86

Post by vertex-four »

kuschku wrote: post #81
mxuribe wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually matrix - the protocol upon which vector and now riot depend - is an open protocol; reference here: http://matrix.org/docs/spec/ And then of course, there are the matrix bridges to IRC, etc. Admittedly although i have been using vector clients AND have installed my own personal synapse server, i have no experience using/supporting the various matrix bridges, so can't speak to their quality. That being said, i…

> you might want to take a look at matrix (the protocol), and suggest improvements; we all stand to benefit from your (and the community's) suggestions. My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code. Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up with even more competing standards. You don’t even believe yourself you’ll be able to actually replace the ecosys…

So who's working on federation and single identity across IRC networks? Who's working on a protocol which would let me ask other users for their chat logs from before I joined a channel? Who's working on WebRTC signalling over IRC? When will bouncers be built into IRC servers so I don't have to run my own? When will IRC have a standardised HTTP protocol by which I can run whatever webclient, mobile client, or otherwise that I want? When will it support proprietary push services to keep mobile battery life up?

IRC has had 28 years to do any one of these things.

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#87

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

Arathorn wrote: post #82
kuschku wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's got really good cross-protocol bridges With that you mean "a worse IRC bridge than Slack"? Every user and dev of IRC clients and servers I’ve talked to in the past weeks has only complained about Matrix’ bridge.

interesting - what is the precise issue? The main difference is that Matrix acts effectively as a bouncer, bouncing all the different clients into IRC, rather than a bridge - unlike Slack's bridge which is just a single bot. We're aware that we haven't enabled membership list syncing into Matrix yet from IRC (due to performance issues on synapse), but otherwise it should be pretty good. More fact, less FUD please? :)

Thanks for providing some information. I was curious what the issue was. Although I suppose I'll have to wait a bit longer for a proper response...

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#88

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

sctb wrote: post #54
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it is exactly that. The old title of this post reflect that. I don't know why it was changed.

It's important on HN that titles reflect only the content of the submission, and since the homepage doesn't reference Vector, the title can't. We've just updated the link to the blog post from the homepage, which informs us of the rebranding.

...That's a fairly ridiculous rule when it results in problems like this.

Have you considered revising it, or something?

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#89

Post by vertex-four »

kuschku wrote: post #81
mxuribe wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually matrix - the protocol upon which vector and now riot depend - is an open protocol; reference here: http://matrix.org/docs/spec/ And then of course, there are the matrix bridges to IRC, etc. Admittedly although i have been using vector clients AND have installed my own personal synapse server, i have no experience using/supporting the various matrix bridges, so can't speak to their quality. That being said, i…

> you might want to take a look at matrix (the protocol), and suggest improvements; we all stand to benefit from your (and the community's) suggestions. My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code. Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up with even more competing standards. You don’t even believe yourself you’ll be able to actually replace the ecosys…

Matrix is not trying to split any community. If it were, it wouldn't have bridges to IRC, Slack, or any other chat system.

I'd like to see Freenode integrate a seamless bouncer. I suspect I won't in the next few years. Right now, Matrix provides one. Fancy that. (Also, I'm chatting across four different Matrix servers, with people in those rooms from many more, and have only ever had to manually connect to one server (my own) and have only had to create one account. IRC isn't working on fixing that.)

Re: Vector is now called Riot

#90

Post by reitanqild »

kuschku wrote: post #81
mxuribe wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually matrix - the protocol upon which vector and now riot depend - is an open protocol; reference here: http://matrix.org/docs/spec/ And then of course, there are the matrix bridges to IRC, etc. Admittedly although i have been using vector clients AND have installed my own personal synapse server, i have no experience using/supporting the various matrix bridges, so can't speak to their quality. That being said, i…

> you might want to take a look at matrix (the protocol), and suggest improvements; we all stand to benefit from your (and the community's) suggestions. My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code. Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up with even more competing standards. You don’t even believe yourself you’ll be able to actually replace the ecosys…

> My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code.

> Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up with even more competing standards.

Oh come on: there is no lack of developer time, so many developers are rotting away in front of TVs.

There is however a lack of developer motivation to do open source projects.

If anyone wants to work on this instead of wasting their life in front of the tv, thumbs up from me.

+ as already has been pointed out, matrix seems to go way way beyond irc.

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