Lots of work isn't always bad, but we move in the direction of where we spend our time. First decide, where do I want to be in 1,3,5 years? Map your time usage (including work & leisure), determine how much truly free-time you have left and split it into 9. Spend 5/9 of free-time positioning for where you want to be in 1 year, 3/9 positioning for where you want to be in 3 years, and 1/9 positioning for where you want to be in 5 years. If your 1,3 & 5 year goals relate to climbing ladder at company you're in now, then your work weeks may be many hours (Jeffrey Immelt of GE for example), if your goal is successful completion of a project your managing due in 1 year, so you can move to another company in 3 years and then do whatever after that, your workweeks this year will be standard hours + 5/9 of your free time. The further the goal, the less time you devote today, but if you devote no time, the goal won't ever happen. This is the cost of leadership.
The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek
81–90 of 152 posts
Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek
#82I went to a talk once on leadership. One of the suggestions was to get your "go to hell kit" ready. That is, get enough money in the bank (whatever that means for you) so that you can walk away if things cross your personal lines, be they moral / work-life balance, whatever. It's a good thing if there's pressure to work silly hours. In my first job (recent grad) before I left the job, I'd been working 5 weekends stra…
Another name I've seen this under is having "F You Money". Or in other words, enough money that if you ever need to tell management "F You", you can do so without fearing for you or your family's livelihood.
I think this is important anywhere, not just programming. When I was younger, I worked at several fast food places. There was a Burger King job I left within 2 weeks because they had me working insane amounts of unpaid overtime. When I told them I would be leaving they essentially tried to bully me into staying. "We may not be paying you in full, but if you leave you'll be making no money, and that's much worse. You don't have another job waiting, it's just a bad idea to quit. You could become homeless!"
Thankfully I was living with my parents at the time and could tell BK to screw themselves. But I feel really bad for other employees in that same situation who either fell for the spiel or legitimately couldn't afford to be jobless for a day.
Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek
#83I went to a talk once on leadership. One of the suggestions was to get your "go to hell kit" ready. That is, get enough money in the bank (whatever that means for you) so that you can walk away if things cross your personal lines, be they moral / work-life balance, whatever. It's a good thing if there's pressure to work silly hours. In my first job (recent grad) before I left the job, I'd been working 5 weekends stra…
One should always have the "go to hell kit" somewhat nearby (e.g., available with at most a few weeks of focused effort). Not having this can make one effectively enslaved to the current job (and not only job) which, at least for me, is very very not good for morale.
Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek
#84I read up to the part where he said he worked at google, then shut my computer down and jumped out of a window.
Could you explain?
I've not worked at Google, but my guess is that:
1) Google is able to be flexible about many things that other companies are not
2) If you work at Google, you have many job opportunities open to you that others might not. So just leaving and finding or creating a job where you can work fewer hours is much easier than someone working in a lower-end position for a small company in a market with few opportunities.
Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you also account for the fact that you are way more likely to be promoted if you work overtime?
Reading all the responses to your comment a few things come to mind: - people on HN have bad jobs with no advancement track for strong technical skills - people on HN don't want to work their way up, then want it handed to them.
Regarding point number 2 - A promotion has to get handed to you in some way or another, regardless of how hard you work for it.
I just don't want my career advancement to be up to the arbitrary whims of someone in a position of authority, that's all.
There are many ways to work your way up that don't involve giving all of your free time away to someone else who may or may not decide to promote you for it.
Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You're just reducing your hourly rate. This is how I've always explained to people who constantly work overtime in salaried positions where they don't actually get paid for that overtime. You can at look at it one of 2 ways. 1. Your billable self stopped at the 8-hour mark on a given weekday and every hour after that, including weekends, you're just giving away free labor to the company. Just think about that every…
For salaried employees or contract work with capped hours, overtime can also be banked goodwill or converted to flex time. Most office environments I've worked at are not rigidly policy-driven, are populated with sensible humans, and the overwhelming majority of my teammates are working for the success of the team and each other.
Sure, the team/your teammates might be working for the success of each other, but that doesn't mean you aren't all being screwed by the company.
Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
most people just don't have the balls to draw a line and not cross it, mainly because of fear. simple as that.
Most people also don't set an alarm on their phone for 4:59 at which point they leave no matter what is happening. Not saying the GP is that person, but there are certainly extremes on both ends of the spectrum (working 80 hours a week v. refusing to work 8h 0m 1s under any non-emergency circumstance no matter what), and I've worked with both of them and neither are very enjoyable to be around. I've had meetings sche…
Yeah, people need to be less uptight about this in general. Once in a while you'll have an appointment or a flight or something that requires you to leave at 5:00:00 sharp, and that's cool as long as it's not excessive, but most of the time employees should expect to leave anywhere between 4pm and 6pm just based on how the day is going, what meetings are scheduled, etc.
Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek
#88I think it also depends on the industry and way you are paid. If you are getting paid $100k doing simple web work, CRUD database stuff, JEE plumbing type where, wiring together libraries with Spring, etc. then you are probably going to complain about working more hours. If you are getting paid $250k or $300k doing something highly interesting that comes with tight deadlines like finance or trading, then you are going…
In my opinion, when you work for bonuses/commission they have effectively hired you as a contractor. At that point you are your own business and can go anywhere. But you give away the rights to your work for stability in income, scalable structure and having a team.
Edit* also capital is pretty important which huge companies have and being self employed becomes more difficult to obtain
But, like any self owned business, you get out what you put in.
Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek
#89Let me come in with a contradictory opinion especially on the overtime. You don't work for your current salary, you work for your next one. If you are one of those 9 to 5 ers, don't complain when the guy working 60 hours and more gets that promotion over you. The higher up the ladder you go, the more that will be required of you. Also, startups or high paying jobs will require more of you since you will get getting m…
I say meh to all of this. You're better off taking that extra time and spending it on side projects and side businesses that will give you independence from your current company. When you take taxes into consideration, the promotions don't really add up to that much. You're just adding to your yearly income, which tends to get taxed quite heavily anyway. You need to find a way to take your effort and put it into some…
> I also generally don't like the idea of someone else telling me what my contributions are worth. By putting in all those extra hours, you're basically pinning all of your hopes on someone else's judgment. If they like you, then maybe you'll get that extra money.
He mentioned he works in finance. That whole industry is very hierarchical and based around strict pecking orders (and lots of koolaid drinking to boot). In many firms, you are always just "one project away" from being promoted or made partner.
Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you also account for the fact that you are way more likely to be promoted if you work overtime?
Is that actually true? A good coder or sysadmin who is willing to work overtime is more valuable as a coder or sysadmin than as a team lead or something, where the nature of their work demands less overtime.
I have a coworker who works harder than anyone else on the team, he's the most productive and knows the codebase in depth. I can see him getting a nice bonus, he deserves it, but I don't think he will be promoted. For one, my boss just hired someone more senior and I think his plan is to move that person into management. The other thing is, it would kill our team's productivity to lose our best programmer, he's too useful in his current role.