>The IRS claims Facebook’s tax adviser Ernst & Young LLP undervalued the company’s property as it was transferred to Facebook Ireland Holdings Ltd. by evaluating pieces of the online platform separately, according to court filings ... “I don’t think Facebook is necessarily hiding anything, but it’s a fight over pricing,” said Stephen Hamilton, a tax lawyer in Philadelphia. “This is what companies do when they transfe…
I'm not sure why you put value in scare quotes. By avoiding excessive US taxes, Facebook is now a more efficient company. That is how taxes work. The government introduces friction into economic transactions, which sucks up some amount of productivity from those who produce value, which the government can then use for its own ends. By moving to a country with more reasonable taxes, Facebook's economic interactions no…
Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B
81–90 of 128 posts
Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wow. I mean, if you're going to argue that corporate tax rates should be lower, just make that argument . But the argument that corporations should be able to pay fewer taxes because they (and/or other corporations) lobbied to create a byzantine tax law that they then exploited is... a special kind of argument.
The argument is that income tax for companies is a terrible idea and it's better to move taxation to different places. Places where you can be both more efficient and more fair at collecting. It's impossible to make income tax fair. The simplest example is selling rights to trademark or some licensing to friendly company located in tax heaven. You will never be able to assess fair value of a trademark and you will al…
Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B
#83My view is that corporate income tax is just a very bad idea. It will always introduce a lot of judgement problems and you will always need to assess every single transaction. Is it "fair price" or is it done to funnel money somewhere? Those questions are impossible to answer objectively and we shouldn't really care. Tax owners of the corporation. Tax people for living in a nice place (land tax, real estate tax, all…
>(companies with access to top lawyers pay less, small companies pay more). That is a problem of the law being easier to circumvent if you've got resources to do so. From abusing how complicated the tax code is, to actively lobbying to pass laws that make it easy for you to do so. Simplifying the tax code, removing loopholes is one step, but that would require a total rewrite of it, which is a long process. Corporate…
OP never said that companies shouldn't contribute back to society, only that it not be done in the form of an income tax.
Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B
#84My view is that corporate income tax is just a very bad idea. It will always introduce a lot of judgement problems and you will always need to assess every single transaction. Is it "fair price" or is it done to funnel money somewhere? Those questions are impossible to answer objectively and we shouldn't really care. Tax owners of the corporation. Tax people for living in a nice place (land tax, real estate tax, all…
How would that work if a company isn't profitable? Sounds like taxing profit makes more sense, although I agree that it does give ambiguity. But then, it also allows the government to incentivize certain kinds of spending over others by allowing it to be counted (or not) towards the tax bill.
Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
You'd end up with a country like Singapore, where the taxes are lower, but more wisely spent.
Singapore would be overrun by poorer neighbors in a week if not for the blue-water navies that other nations "waste" their money on
Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B
#86Corporate income taxes should be eliminated. Instead of focusing on building a company and good products, companies have to dedicate resources to figure out how to escape the taxation. Taxation should be done when profit is distributed to shareholders (similar to Estonia). There is also unfair double taxation - paying taxes after company pays them.
Wow. I mean, if you're going to argue that corporate tax rates should be lower, just make that argument . But the argument that corporations should be able to pay fewer taxes because they (and/or other corporations) lobbied to create a byzantine tax law that they then exploited is... a special kind of argument.
Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is 100% about taxes. The only reason the IRS cares about valuing assets is for the amount of tax they can levy on them. And saving $5B sounds darn efficient to me.
I know for sure that if I underdeclare the value of my holdings or my income, I'll be punished when caught, and I don't consider that unfair. I might disagree with the amount I'm taxed, but I don't disagree that I should contribute something to society through paying tax. The difference as I see it is that companies usually operate as if they believe they shouldn't pay any tax. I realise that minimising tax burden is…
You should think of it as a negotiation. Many transactions, even on a smaller scale, are complex, and deciding on the "true value" is often impossible. So the tax authorities are negotiating with Facebook, and Facebook's report is simply its opening offer. You wouldn't consider a salesmen who overpriced his product to be doing something necessarily unethical (assuming they weren't outright committing fraud or otherwise doing something illegal).
Disclaimer: Not a lawyer or accountant, and I'm totally generalizing here from other transactions I know more about. I actually know almost nothing specific about the US tax system or this situation with Facebook, I'm trying to convey the general attitude that most companies have.
Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is stealing, if it was intentionally undervalued to avoid a tax.
Do you consider it stealing if a bakery takes back bread that was stolen from their store? Taxes are theft by force. Try to skip paying and see how quickly the authorities steal it straight out of your accounts.
Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B
#89My view is that corporate income tax is just a very bad idea. It will always introduce a lot of judgement problems and you will always need to assess every single transaction. Is it "fair price" or is it done to funnel money somewhere? Those questions are impossible to answer objectively and we shouldn't really care. Tax owners of the corporation. Tax people for living in a nice place (land tax, real estate tax, all…
"If you really want you can tax companies' revenue (not profits)." How would that work if a company isn't profitable? Sounds like taxing profit makes more sense, although I agree that it does give ambiguity. But then, it also allows the government to incentivize certain kinds of spending over others by allowing it to be counted (or not) towards the tax bill.
The only difference is that one operates under famous trademark from country X which it licenses for 100M/year and brings 0$ profits while the other one developed its own trademark which it owns therefore making 100M/year in profit.
What kind of justification (moral, utilitarian, economic) do you see for charging 2nd company 100M * tax rate more than the first company?
Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Tax capital gains as income.
Millions of retirees have carefully worked out the point at which they can retire based on capital gains, and increasing taxes on it would break that. Perhaps tax income like capital gains, if you want them to match.
This leads to the situation, not at all uncommon or illegal, where a lot of highly paid professionals are the directors of their own limited companies, take no salary, and get all of their remuneration in the form of dividends taxed a maximum rate of 28%.
For reference, anything over £31,786 per year is taxed at 40% -- before that it's 20% (national insurance is extra). It's usually the case that freelancers or contractors are able to invoice via their own limited companies, whereas employees are not normally able to do it this way and have to go the income tax route.
Doing this is entirely legal, and many people argue that it's perfectly 'fair', but it definitely doesn't look fair to those unable to take advantage of that setup who earn, say, £60,000.
Some figures, very rough and rounded to whole pounds:
Earning £60,000 and paying
income tax:
---------------------------
£10,800 - 0% = £10,800 Tax free allowance
£31,700 - 20% = £25,360 'Basic Rate' tax
£17,500 - 40% = £10,500 'Higher Rate' tax
===========================
£60,000 gross = £37,210 net
(before national insurance
contributions are taken)
Earning £60,000 and paying
capital gains tax:
---------------------------
£11,000 - 0% = £11,000 Tax free allowance
£49,000 - 28% = £35,280 Highest CGT rate
===========================
£60,000 gross = £46,280 net
(before national insurance
contributions are taken)
So under that setup, someone who can't use the limited company method is nearly £10,000 a year worse off before national insurance contributions are taken into account. Even assuming some costs for accounting, that still leaves the second person significantly better off.(Edited to remove duplicated calculations at top of comment.)