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Don't add your 2 cents

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Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#81

Post by ckastner »

cottsak wrote: post #36
timv wrote: post #26

I think the suggested comment It’s perfect. Great work! Let’s ship it. has its own set of issues. Firstly, while the conversation started with "I'm looking for input", the manager has suddenly moved it into a push for delivery. If the design was ready to ship, then that won't be an issue, but if all you're looking at is a mockup, or a slapped together stylesheet, etc, then what was an attempt an encouragement has jus…

I think your subtle focus on the semantics of the reply highlight a common block to agile feedback loops, small batches and generally getting things done. Sorry if that's harsh but you either missed the point of the article entirely or just overlooked it, the latter possibly being worse. The primary point IMO is "don't squash ownership" because the cost of doing so is often not fully realised. The secondary point is…

> I think your subtle focus on the semantics of the reply highlight a common block to agile feedback loops, small batches and generally getting things done. The primary point IMO is "don't squash ownership" because the cost of doing so is often not fully realised.

^^^ Here's your comment without the pointless condescending remarks. Notice the difference?

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#82

Post by baddox »

paulsutter wrote: post #9
baddox wrote: post #4

Is it not possible to make it clear that your 2 cents is just a suggestion? This just seems like bad communication, and regardless of whose fault that is, the boss might as well try to solve it.

No it's really not possible. Whatever you say, it's going to weight down their thinking.

It really is possible. I have received countless suggestions from my employer that we understand to be merely suggestions rather than orders.

This seems like one of the most basic communication requirements in a company hierarchy. I'm surprised people seem to think it's impossible to achieve, when I would sooner think that it's impossible for a company to be functional without having achieved it.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#84

Post by Swizec »

Gustomaximus wrote: post #34

Something a very smart person advised me was to "Tell people what you want, not what to do" It sounds so simple yet is surprisingly hard to practice. It really puts the onus on you to think carefully about outcomes you desire and explain it clearly.

Or as Neil Gaiman put it from the opposite perspective:"When people tell it's wrong, they're almost always right. When they tell you how to fix it they're almost never right."

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#85

Post by derefr »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #70
derefr wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's like SEO, where all the low-hanging fruit is obvious and sensible, but where further optimization beyond that point is stuff that looks really odd and counter-intuitive, or like it "couldn't possibly" have any impact. Maybe people put out a 1.0 units of effort when you're just a reasonable person, but put out e.g. 1.1 units when you baby them, and so babying them is a "win" in some sense?

>Maybe people put out a 1.0 units of effort when you're just a reasonable person, but put out e.g. 1.1 units when you baby them, and so babying them is a "win" in some sense? I'd contend that any worker that you have to "baby" in a business environment to get their best effort is a worker you are better off without.

Note that I'm talking about results, not effort. Someone could be giving their best effort already, resulting in 1.0 units of output. But babying them might be the emotional equivalent of blood-doping in a marathon, a psychological stimulus that actually partially restores or extends the willpower-resource that is spent internally to accomplish work.

I'm also not talking about a specific kind of person who "needs" babying. I'm proposing instead that your average neurotypical human brain might have this effect built in, such that it applies to anyone and everyone. It would just be an effect that most of the time goes untapped.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#86

Post by apatters »

While I'm normally a fan of Derek's musings, this one is too pithy for me. He is painting with too broad of a brush. There are all kinds of reasons why you might tell an employee to make small changes: maybe one small change will have a big impact; maybe many small changes in aggregate will have a big impact; maybe the employee doesn't want to take ownership; maybe the employee is too junior to take ownership; maybe the employee wants to learn the nuances of the profession in greater detail; maybe the employee is an underperformer; I could go on like this indefinitely as could many other experienced managers.

Now maybe if you're employing a bunch of independent-thinking artistic, creative and intelligent types this generalization makes sense. But I'm sure the global workforce has substantially more than 1 billion members who don't fit this definition. In that light it seems a little irresponsible to put this thought out there like it's a zen koan.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#87

Post by arnarbi »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #66
ojosilva wrote: post #57

I find the advice highly condescending. > Because of that small change, that person no longer feels full ownership of their project. What kind of person is that who 1) thinks the ownership is 100% theirs when working in a team? 2) can't handle a little nitpicking? 3) feels it's less their work just because of a little change? 4) can't defend their work and resist those 2c? This is advice for managing 2 year olds. As…

>This is advice for managing 2 year olds. That's exactly the vibe I got from reading this article. I immediately thought of someone trying to manage super-fragile millennials who wilt and pout without constant encouragement and affirmation. If I submit I project for scrutiny, I want constructive criticism and advice. The goal should to make the project as good as it can be, not manage the feelings of emotionally chal…

People can be impacted negatively without them wilting and pouting over it. Feelings are also very intangible. They might not even realize it themselves if it demoralizes them. Just the same as many people don't fully understand why their boss is such "a great boss". Managing people is also about understanding that your feelings are not a model for other people's feelings, and you must actively compensate for how others may react.

The article is not about affirmation. It's pointing out that opinions of a manager often implicitly mean something more than an opinion, and your objective criticism isn't fully taken as such but rather in some part as an instruction. This is demoralizing for most people, even though it might be small. The conclusion is that perhaps-not-so-important opinions aren't worth the potential negative effect.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#88

Post by ojosilva »

derefr wrote: post #85
StanislavPetrov wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe people put out a 1.0 units of effort when you're just a reasonable person, but put out e.g. 1.1 units when you baby them, and so babying them is a "win" in some sense? I'd contend that any worker that you have to "baby" in a business environment to get their best effort is a worker you are better off without.

Note that I'm talking about results , not effort . Someone could be giving their best effort already, resulting in 1.0 units of output. But babying them might be the emotional equivalent of blood-doping in a marathon, a psychological stimulus that actually partially restores or extends the willpower-resource that is spent internally to accomplish work. I'm also not talking about a specific kind of person who "needs"…

I think a truer kind of relationship is the most significant factor still. It's the common denominator that will take people to great results for a wider "audience" (a team here).

But I agree that fine-tuning your feedback and style per individual needs, even if counterintuitive, may also be productive, as long as it's not contradictory and leads to situations where one team member feels another is being babied around more.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#89

Post by multjoy »

virtualized wrote: post #79

Wow, what a bad example. That is called constructive criticism and is a very valuable tool in a company's toolbox of culture. What I observed to be actually harmful is criticism of how an employee works: Tools, practices and habits. If your boss tells you that the build tool of your choice sucks without naming a better alternative or any constructive advice, that feels really bad and destroys motivation for the job.

No it isn't. The example presented is the manager throwing in his two cents worth because they feel they ought to contribute something, which is what the article is arguing against.
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