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Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

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Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#81

Post by ciupicri »

sanswork wrote: post #77
cariaso wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect this discussion has now ceased to be useful to anyone. I'm more or less certain that you are now 'white knight' and 'question trolling'. I find it equally frustrating that you are 'concerned' about 'feeling' harassed, not 'being' harassed. I'm suspect you view me through a similarly narrow filter. But hey, https://xkcd.com/386/ I did not say anything about 'what happened', I was speaking of 'belief' which w…

You point to a case where someone was freely able to harass and abuse other members of the community for years as an example of why CoC's aren't needed? You accept that you need to exclude people for the health of the community but you continue to reject CoCs because....you once were involved in a board with someone that took a long time to establish one? I personally think a lot of the push back is from jerks fearin…

And a lot of people don't care so much if someone else says something "inappropriate".

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#82

Post by flukus »

MichaelGG wrote: post #63
flukus wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are web based IRC clients. IRC can integrate with other platforms pretty easily. IRC doesn't require setting up your own server. Being able to setup your own server is a benefit, not a negative. Much like twitter it seems to be another regressions from an open internet to corporate control. The only positive I can see is rich text, but that has extremely limited value in a chat program. History is nice too but…

I'd love to agree. But with IRC you've no guarantee, for instance, that an offline user will receive notifications when they sign in (plus multi client handling). Slack has search for history, which is huge. No more "eh we talked about it". Onprem is great. But it's a hindrance for quick adoption. I'd love if an open system would win. I've no love for Slack and don't use it. (Have used hipchat; what a UI mess like al…

> I'd love to agree. But with IRC you've no guarantee, for instance, that an offline user will receive notifications when they sign in (plus multi client handling). > Slack has search for history, which is huge. No more "eh we talked about it".

For functionality like that it sounds like a mailing list would fit the use case better.

> Onprem is great. But it's a hindrance for quick adoption.

It's not either/or. Think of git, you can use a hosted server or a private one. The ability to host your own server doesn't hinder anyone.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#83

Post by sanswork »

ciupicri wrote: post #81
sanswork wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You point to a case where someone was freely able to harass and abuse other members of the community for years as an example of why CoC's aren't needed? You accept that you need to exclude people for the health of the community but you continue to reject CoCs because....you once were involved in a board with someone that took a long time to establish one? I personally think a lot of the push back is from jerks fearin…

And a lot of people don't care so much if someone else says something "inappropriate".

Yes I commented on them in the last paragraph.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#84

Post by ciupicri »

moosingin3space wrote: post #65
ciupicri wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so bad about a code reviewer which starts sending you dick pics compared to a code reviewer which starts sending you cat pics? They're both a waste of time.

Dick pics fall into the category of "unwanted sexual advances", which is a form of harassment.

I guess some people could see it that way given the donglegate scandal, but it can't be harassment if it's not repeated. And if something is to be repeated, then lots of things can be used besides dick pics.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#85

Post by ciupicri »

sanswork wrote: post #83
ciupicri wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a lot of people don't care so much if someone else says something "inappropriate".

Yes I commented on them in the last paragraph.

Huh?! You're saying that some people don't know what is inappropriate, not that they don't care.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#86

Post by sanswork »

ciupicri wrote: post #85
sanswork wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I commented on them in the last paragraph.

Huh?! You're saying that some people don't know what is inappropriate, not that they don't care.

>There are stereotypes about programmers and their social skills and if over 20 years programming has taught me anything it is that they portray way too many individuals involved in it accurately.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#87

Post by mwfunk »

marssaxman wrote: post #50
mwfunk wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that that's how it ought to be; I strongly disagree that that's how it is. Plenty of people are physically adults; a subset of those people are mentally adults. This is even worse in the world of tech forums and open source projects than it is in the world at large. FWIW, I have yet to see a code of conduct that really says anything beyond "don't be a jerk, and act like a grownup". It might be silly if it als…

I suppose that's part of the reason I've had trouble understanding this phenomenon: the couple of "code of conduct" documents I've read have seemed so inoffensively obvious that it is hard to understand why such a document would be necessary, much less why it would be controversial. It alarms me that people care so much about them that merely expressing confusion about the purpose or utility of such a document acts a…

I guess I don't interpret the presence of a code of conduct as an alienating, harsh, moralistic approach to anything. It's about as alienating/harsh/moralistic as a kitten, if the kitten was easily ignored and made of ASCII.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#88

Post by colemickens »

wtbob wrote: post #40
xenadu02 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious or arguing insincerely? I can't tell. Codes of conduct are a direct response to ongoing harassment and stalking against various contributors of various open-source projects, followed by inaction on the part of the project maintainers or the excuse of "that just can't handle criticism". What is so offensive about saying "make it about the code, not about the person" and "don't stalk, dox, or harass peo…

> A code of conduct is a signal that juvenile behavior won't be tolerated Hardly: a code of conduct is juvenile behaviour. It's like when I was a little kid and drafted a huge constitution for my amazing awesome cool club — that was just me. Adults don't need to write down a code of conduct, because they adhere to an unwritten code of conduct. Children whinge, 'you shouldn't do that, because this says not to!'; adult…

In this thread are men literally defending sending unsolicited dick pics to unwilling participants.

Feel free to waste your breath trying to convince me that CoCs aren't needed.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#89

Post by colemickens »

mwfunk wrote: post #87
marssaxman wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose that's part of the reason I've had trouble understanding this phenomenon: the couple of "code of conduct" documents I've read have seemed so inoffensively obvious that it is hard to understand why such a document would be necessary, much less why it would be controversial. It alarms me that people care so much about them that merely expressing confusion about the purpose or utility of such a document acts a…

I guess I don't interpret the presence of a code of conduct as an alienating, harsh, moralistic approach to anything. It's about as alienating/harsh/moralistic as a kitten, if the kitten was easily ignored and made of ASCII.

omg but your oppressive code of conduct may prevent me from harassing or berating someone down the line, so I better act like they stifle speech even though I can't find a single example of them doing so!!111 /s

It really is magical to see these people that think that everyone are supposedly always courteous to each other throw such a shit fit over codifying that into an official policy.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#90

Post by orbitur »

flukus wrote: post #82
MichaelGG wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to agree. But with IRC you've no guarantee, for instance, that an offline user will receive notifications when they sign in (plus multi client handling). Slack has search for history, which is huge. No more "eh we talked about it". Onprem is great. But it's a hindrance for quick adoption. I'd love if an open system would win. I've no love for Slack and don't use it. (Have used hipchat; what a UI mess like al…

> I'd love to agree. But with IRC you've no guarantee, for instance, that an offline user will receive notifications when they sign in (plus multi client handling). > Slack has search for history, which is huge. No more "eh we talked about it". For functionality like that it sounds like a mailing list would fit the use case better. > Onprem is great. But it's a hindrance for quick adoption. It's not either/or. Think…

> For functionality like that it sounds like a mailing list would fit the use case better.

Then you're looking at an email with the visual noise of recipients and whitespace and signatures, and if the UI is really bad (mailing list websites, for example), every message is viewed in isolation without the responses.

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