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Shedding light on the dark web

economist.com

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Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#81

Post by bduerst »

kelvin0 wrote: post #76
skylark wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that there's some sort of conspiracy to keep police, lawyers, and prisons funded via laws against selling drugs. Have you considered that these laws are still in place simply because it's the status quo? Politicians voting on laws and drafting new ones must ultimately answer to their constituents. While the vast majority of things fly under the radar, "pro-drug" support is enough of a charge…

Never underestimate greed. In plain sight: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/10/11/as... http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/st... http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/03/12/c... http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken

How is that proof of conspiracy?

Civil asset forfeiture laws could fall subject to the same "status quo" problem as drug laws. Even then there are states who are taking steps to change them (e.g. CA SB 443 revote in Aug 2016), which could also be said about marijuana decriminalization.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#82

Post by digler999 »

idlewords wrote: post #16
abfan1127 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please see Alcohol Prohibition in the United States (at least back then they amended the US Constitution to do it legally).

From a public health perspective, Prohibition was a success. The main reason it failed as policy is chemistry. You can make ethanol from anything—even a cactus, as Mexico has taught us.

so if alcohol weren't so easy to make, like say it had to be imported from the Golden Triangle, it would have never been smuggled (in massive quantities) past the border ?

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#83

Post by selestify »

acctid4325 wrote: post #77
dopamean wrote: post #11

Any time I read anything about the illegal drug trade I am struck by how much the industry would change if all drugs were legalized everywhere. So much effort is expended to keep things hidden from law enforcement and other criminals that it adds an incredible amount of friction to the purchasing process for the purchaser and the seller. From the buyer's perspective you now have to go into business with some often un…

To what extend it is society's job to protect people from themselves? So let's assume that we legalize 'drugs' for everyone: can I now buy pot and meth and acid and heroine and what not complete with shooting accessories from 7-Eleven? Are we seriously proposing that people in masses would be able to responsibly consume these newly available substances. If there is doubt, maybe we add, similar to obtaining a drivers…

It's not trolling, there are people (like me) who actually agree with what that post says.

As to your points, alcohol is already legal. Which one of your points applies to other drugs but not alcohol?

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#84

Post by pzone »

idlewords wrote: post #16
abfan1127 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please see Alcohol Prohibition in the United States (at least back then they amended the US Constitution to do it legally).

From a public health perspective, Prohibition was a success. The main reason it failed as policy is chemistry. You can make ethanol from anything—even a cactus, as Mexico has taught us.

But the whole point is that an objective function where you measure success only in terms of infant mortality, number of addicts etc. is absurd.

Prohibition ruins people's lives, when they are sent to jail, marked as felons and excluded from the job market. We spend billions and billions of dollars enforcing these laws. And believe it or not, many people just enjoy drinking, and do it without any negative consequences to themselves or others. You can't ignore all of that and say prohibition is justified just because it (arguably) improves things on a single dimension.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#85

Post by Swizec »

acctid4325 wrote: post #77
dopamean wrote: post #11

Any time I read anything about the illegal drug trade I am struck by how much the industry would change if all drugs were legalized everywhere. So much effort is expended to keep things hidden from law enforcement and other criminals that it adds an incredible amount of friction to the purchasing process for the purchaser and the seller. From the buyer's perspective you now have to go into business with some often un…

To what extend it is society's job to protect people from themselves? So let's assume that we legalize 'drugs' for everyone: can I now buy pot and meth and acid and heroine and what not complete with shooting accessories from 7-Eleven? Are we seriously proposing that people in masses would be able to responsibly consume these newly available substances. If there is doubt, maybe we add, similar to obtaining a drivers…

So let's assume that we legalize alcohol for everyone: can I now buy beer and whisky and absinthe and whatnot complete with glasses from 7-Eleven? Are we seriously proposing that people in masses would be able to responsibly consume these substances. If ther is doubt, maybe we add, similar to obtaining a drivers license, a class of responsible alcohol use for kids to their high school curriculum. A 12-step program from mild to mind blowing drunkness that runs from elementary to the high school graduation. Which begs the question, do we make them free for all ages, subject to parents discretion, or maybe no alcohol for minors? Or high schoolers? But tehn again, that would make it less-free.

And yet the world did not end when alcohol became legal where it was before illegal. Minors aren't allowed to use it. People of certain ages are allowed to use it with parents discretion. Many schools have classes about alcoholism and responsible drinking.

Most people are fine with that.

On the other hand, many high schoolers and below are prescribed controlled doses of amphetamines.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#86

Post by squeaky-clean »

Torgo wrote: post #63
sophacles wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it any different than trying to function with an alcohol addiction? Are you suggesting that we should ban the booze too? A surprisingly large amount of arguments against drugs are circular: Addiction is bad -> make it illegal -> look at all the legal trouble addiction causes -> Addiction is bad. And most of them get even sillier if you replace the drug being demonized with the word alcohol.

>How is it any different than trying to function with an alcohol addiction? pretty different! Both the addiction, how easy it is to get addicted. I've got a challenge for you, start using heroin, then decide to stop, like a casual drinker. Report back your experience!

> I've got a challenge for you, start using heroin, then decide to stop, like a casual drinker.

Just because it's easy for you to refrain from drinking alcohol does not mean it is easy for everybody. Some people have a serious problem to the point where the only way to guarantee they don't abuse it is to not even be in the same room or house as the stuff.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#87

Post by PeCaN »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #80
Torgo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How is it any different than trying to function with an alcohol addiction? pretty different! Both the addiction, how easy it is to get addicted. I've got a challenge for you, start using heroin, then decide to stop, like a casual drinker. Report back your experience!

FYI, withdrawal from alcohol is among the worst of any drug. It is one of the few drugs where withdrawal can actually be lethal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

OTOH, it takes a lot longer to become physically dependent on alcohol than opiates.

But yes, don't mess with your GABA system unless you like seizures; and don't mess with your opiod system unless you like being miserable.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#88

Post by duaneb »

skylark wrote: post #53
mistermann wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's really a shitty experience for everyone involved. However, it creates many thousands of very well paid jobs for police, lawyers, prison employees, etc. - you know, the people that create the laws. Long ago I might have considered that there might be some justification for these laws (or anywhere there's rules really), but nowadays when you wonder why "the way something is" is, it's easier to just assume someon…

I find it hard to believe that there's some sort of conspiracy to keep police, lawyers, and prisons funded via laws against selling drugs. Have you considered that these laws are still in place simply because it's the status quo? Politicians voting on laws and drafting new ones must ultimately answer to their constituents. While the vast majority of things fly under the radar, "pro-drug" support is enough of a charge…

You don't need a conspiracy to have systemic exploitation.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#89

Post by mindcrime »

bduerst wrote: post #81
kelvin0 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never underestimate greed. In plain sight: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/10/11/as... http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/st... http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/03/12/c... http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken

How is that proof of conspiracy? Civil asset forfeiture laws could fall subject to the same "status quo" problem as drug laws. Even then there are states who are taking steps to change them (e.g. CA SB 443 revote in Aug 2016), which could also be said about marijuana decriminalization.

It's not so much a conspiracy per-se, as a case where people, who might otherwise support changing the system, don't do so out of self-interest. At the very least, a lot of people are incentivized to remain silent and accept the status quo as is, even if their personal feelings might lead them down a different path.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#90

Post by aqme28 »

Torgo wrote: post #54
dopamean wrote: post #11

Any time I read anything about the illegal drug trade I am struck by how much the industry would change if all drugs were legalized everywhere. So much effort is expended to keep things hidden from law enforcement and other criminals that it adds an incredible amount of friction to the purchasing process for the purchaser and the seller. From the buyer's perspective you now have to go into business with some often un…

Any time I read anything about legalizing all drugs I am struck by how that opinion would change if they tried to function with a heroin addiction.

Does making something illegal reduce its rate of use? I'm not convinced that it does.
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