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Simple Contracts are Better Contracts: the Meltdown of the DAO

blog.blockstack.org

81–90 of 105 posts

Re: Simple Contracts are Better Contracts: the Meltdown of the DAO

#81
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but that is a flesh-and-blood arbitrator. We are talking about coding the arbitration process into a machine. Being pedantic is exactly what happens when one tries to express cultural norms in the exact terms used by mechanisms.

If you could capture the entire logic in code, it wouldn't be arbitration, it'd just be a feature of the smart contract. The way you'd encode an arbitration clause into a smart contract is making the arbitrator an oracle. That makes it a part of the smart contract, but it's still resolved by an external arbitrator.

That's fair point.

""So I’ll start there, and imagine that there are semi-trusted ‘oracles’ that compete to be the most reliable and trustworthy verifiers of contracts. People involved in contracts choose N of them, and then require that contract conditions be validated by one or more of them before the contract pays out. Pick more than one so no single oracle can steal the contract’s funds, but less than N in case some of them go out of business or just aren’t around to validate contracts when it is time for the contract to pay out."

http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2014/06/bit-thereum.html

So you can "just" write contract in some language so that: - it will cover most of cases without human intervention - if there will be bug with code oracle will read (as human) content of terms to get idea about contract intent (basically dispute)

But it seems that good marketing and some really interesting technology can switch focus from asking basic question - "we are trying to solve existing business problem or just create cool tech?" And yet when i read blogposts about ethereum i see more and more complicated contraptions (ruby goldberg machines in fact) and reason why this whole thing is even build is not clear.

Re: Simple Contracts are Better Contracts: the Meltdown of the DAO

#82
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could capture the entire logic in code, it wouldn't be arbitration, it'd just be a feature of the smart contract. The way you'd encode an arbitration clause into a smart contract is making the arbitrator an oracle. That makes it a part of the smart contract, but it's still resolved by an external arbitrator.

Am I correct in thinking that a smart contract has to be open source? Because there might be good reasons to keep the arbitration oracle's source code secret.

No, multiple parties could execute a smart contract between themselves, and keep the code private. Smart contract just means it's a contract that gets executed through code.

Even in the case of a public and decentralized platform like Ethereum, I don't think there's any requirement to make it open source. Further, I think with Ethereum, a smart contract is made up of compiled code and a Application Binary Interface (defines what functions can be called in your contract), so it could be possible to never even share the source publicly. I've never written an Ethereum smart contract so this is just my understanding, and I may be wrong.

Re: Simple Contracts are Better Contracts: the Meltdown of the DAO

#83

How many of the TheDAO Curator members are lawyers? Contracts are agreements that are meant to be legally enforceable. The enforcer has always been the King, a local governmental authority and a third party. The very concept of a contract assumes the neutral third party. That third party is to interpret the contract, identify potential scoundrels, nullify illegal contracts and generally make sure everyone isn't playi…

(I'm not a member of The Dao, although I do have some Ether. I switched from engineering to law in the early 90's.) I'm sure there are some lawyers who got involved--I was tempted to get some experience with the concept early on. I decided not to primarily because the basic concept of crowdsourcing decisions where the ownership interest determines who has most of the voting power and the major holders are likely to b…

I don;t think lawyers could help with bugs, but their absence could be telling. Most of the lawyers I know wouldn't go anywhere near this sort of thing. A board of directors, or any other governing body, without any lawyers makes me suspect those that were asked fled the project. Or that the organizers deliberately didn't approach any lawyers because they knew what they would say. Anyone with a background in contracts, specifically dealing with contracts gone sour, would see red flags all over this concept.

Re: Simple Contracts are Better Contracts: the Meltdown of the DAO

#85

How many of the TheDAO Curator members are lawyers? Contracts are agreements that are meant to be legally enforceable. The enforcer has always been the King, a local governmental authority and a third party. The very concept of a contract assumes the neutral third party. That third party is to interpret the contract, identify potential scoundrels, nullify illegal contracts and generally make sure everyone isn't playi…

> Contracts are agreements that are meant to be legally enforceable.

You have hit on an important point, but like most commentators here and elsewhere, you seem entirely to have failed to recognize its significance. In the American and English tradition of common law, a contract is an agreement made with the intention that it be subject to legal enforcement [0]. Not every agreement is meant to give its parties recourse to legal remedy, and hence not every agreement is a contract. That is, not every agreement is subject to contract law [1].

It is of little significance that people in the Ethereum community (or in the broader crypto-asset community) have taken to calling their programs "smart contracts"; the name signifies nothing. In the main, and particularly in the case of the DAO, it has been made clear, ad nauseum, that these programmatic agreements are not meant to be subject to legal enforcement; in short, it has been emphasized from the start, and at every intermediate step, that smart contracts are not contracts in the legal sense. Indeed, the major motivation for the development of programmatic agreements (i.e., "smart contracts"), has been to supplant enforcement de jure by enforcement de machina.

The law allows for agreements that do not have the force of law behind them, and naturally the law says little about such agreements. For this reason alone, absent separate provisions which purport to invoke legal enforcement of the intent behind the code that implements a smart contract, it is perfectly reasonable, legally speaking, to argue that prima facie these agreements are not subject to contract law.

Thus the independence of programmatic agreements from legal constraints is legally plausible; this is a very different situation from the legally absurd arguments put forth by some crypto-zealots that, for example, transfers of cryptocurrencies are not subject to laws restricting money transmission.

Now, might a judge decide that any particular programmatic agreement—or "smart contract"—is in fact a legal contract? And that therefore the judge, not the code, ultimately determines who gets what? Sure. Judges tend to decide that they get to decide, when there's any question about it. But it's not unreasonable to imagine that a judge might really say, "No, this is not a legally enforceable contract. It says so right on the box." And if that happens, then what the code says goes.

0. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intention_to_be_legally_boun...

1. Beyond the determination of whether the agreement is legally a contract, I mean. In particular, I mean to point out that a so-called "smart contract" might well be legally deemed not to be a contract at all, and therefore not subject to the provisions of contract law that give precedence to the parties' intent in the agreement over its literal interpretation. In other words, if a programmatic "smart contract" is not legally a contract, there is no legal reason that the law should favor any outcome other that what the code's execution ordains, or that the law should say anything on the subject at all.

Re: Simple Contracts are Better Contracts: the Meltdown of the DAO

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean a "concept of precedent by which past decisions under similar fact patterns are used to inform decisions regarding new fact patterns." Without the need for territorial jurisdiction there will be many competing (but still distinct) common law groups. Signatories would pick a lineage at signing (npm install JAMS). We'll start with human only arbiters, (panel of three from JAMS for example) then moved to mixed pa…

then totally mechanical arbiters will handle most disputes once they're good enough. I'm not seeing it. Who's going to enforce the outcomes of machine dispute resolution? I mean, who's going to even want to sign up to the machine dispute resolution? Not me, no way, that's the freaky dystopian future we're supposed to be trying to avoid.

> I mean, who's going to even want to sign up to the machine dispute resolution? Not me, no way, that's the freaky dystopian future we're supposed to be trying to avoid.

Hell, that was a plot point in a 1987 episode of Max Headroom, "The Blanks", where a "blank" (someone who has erased themselves from all government databases, which is a crime in the world of Max Headroom) protests after she is tried by a computer that she has a right to be judged by a human but the prosecutor points out that as a "blank" she "has no rights" (implying that if she was not a "blank" she would have such a right).

Re: Simple Contracts are Better Contracts: the Meltdown of the DAO

#87

How many of the TheDAO Curator members are lawyers? Contracts are agreements that are meant to be legally enforceable. The enforcer has always been the King, a local governmental authority and a third party. The very concept of a contract assumes the neutral third party. That third party is to interpret the contract, identify potential scoundrels, nullify illegal contracts and generally make sure everyone isn't playi…

Typos rarely matter in real contracts. Intent can trump language where appropriate. But in smart contracts typos are everything. Good luck with that too. The City of Cleveland and Frank McCourt would like to have a word with you about your novel theory. In real contracts, typos--like an errant comma--can be significant and completely change the meaning of the language. Cleveland lost the original Browns because of a…

I once read a story told by a young U.S. lawyer who happened to come from one of West European countries and thus had a specific cultural background. They were in the middle of finishing a deal and when he was re-reading the contract, he noticed that he made a typo and turned $1.5M they were to pay at some stage into $15M. And the contract was already signed! In horror he went to the business owner and confessed. It was a revelation to him when the owner took it very lightly and told him something like: "It's OK, I'll just phone them and we'll have this fixed."

(And it wouldn't stand a chance in court either, because a simple calculation would show this couldn't possibly be a right sum for a sane person to pay for whatever the contract was about.)

Re: Simple Contracts are Better Contracts: the Meltdown of the DAO

#88
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the machine knows Asimov's three laws of robotics then it will know that Shylock's pound of flesh cannot be had.

Asimov's Three Laws aren't a replacement for the whole system of human values. His robot stories are full of robots doing strange things that conflict with human intuition but are aligned with the Three Laws. Asimov himself recognized that the laws were not sufficient, and added the Zeroth Law as a workaround: "A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm." But this law is vague and…

I think the whole idea of these stories was to find ways these seemingly simple and straight laws can come into amazing deadlocks.

Re: Simple Contracts are Better Contracts: the Meltdown of the DAO

#89

How many of the TheDAO Curator members are lawyers? Contracts are agreements that are meant to be legally enforceable. The enforcer has always been the King, a local governmental authority and a third party. The very concept of a contract assumes the neutral third party. That third party is to interpret the contract, identify potential scoundrels, nullify illegal contracts and generally make sure everyone isn't playi…

That's why smart contracts will be really lousy for things that traditional contracts are used for.

But on the other hand, there are some simple - yet important - things that can be implemented in smart contracts pretty easily. Say, futures, or stock options, or certain kinds of insurance. For these things smart contracts are great because they offer extremely cheap enforceability and speed.

This is a textbook blue ocean, or innovator's dilemma. The new tech is much worse than the old one in some cases (enforcing intent), but far better in some other ones (speed, enforceability, global access)

Re: Simple Contracts are Better Contracts: the Meltdown of the DAO

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typos rarely matter in real contracts. Intent can trump language where appropriate. But in smart contracts typos are everything. Good luck with that too. The City of Cleveland and Frank McCourt would like to have a word with you about your novel theory. In real contracts, typos--like an errant comma--can be significant and completely change the meaning of the language. Cleveland lost the original Browns because of a…

In those cases the court found the intent manifest in the language. These were sophisticated parties with legal advice. Even if they court didn't see intent, it is within the courts' power to force such persons to follow the language if for nothing else than to serve as example to other negligent contract drafters. A court will only grant that which is asked for. So for a typo to matter, one of the two parties before…

There are also cases of people selling cars (and other stuff) ultra cheap on ebay, because they misplaced a comma when specifying a price.

It was obvious that the price was supposed to be $20k, not $20.000, and yet the seller lost.

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